Long Keel, Marina, Reversing

[TonyBuckley]

Hi there,

Thinking of getting a new boat and for the first time considering a long keel.

She's 34ft and 5 tonne. The keel is not that long - I reckon five feet?

My current boat is a Trapper 300 (26ft fin keel) and she reverses lovely with steerage after about five feet. In fact, I often reverse her into a marina finger.

Haven't had the sea trial yet, but bricking it about reversing from the marina berth - probably on my own.

What could/should I expect? Some things I have read says she will go anywhere she wants in reverse regardless of wheel position. I don't even know the forward turning circle yet.

I also don't know what the prop wash is like.

So should I put loads of power on or just drift out on very very low power. I want to avoid wrapping around the finger. And yes of course there is wind to consider but no tide.

Thanks for any suggestions - I realise a stupid question as every boat is different, but generally...

Tony

 

[prv]

You can at least check out the prop walk (prop wash is something else, I assume you meant walk) before you untie. Put her in reverse at moderate speed and see which side has more water boiling up. Propwalk will try to swing the stern away from that side.

(However, at least in my old boat, that doesn't automatically mean she'll go that way...

Pete

 

[Rivers & creeks]

34 feet long keeler and 5 tonne - what's she made of, polystyrene? What's the world coming to, a proper 34 footer weighs in at 14 tonne lad.

As for reversing, prop walk will help, so will a bowthruster, springs, praying, fenders and insurance. It's like my old Jack Russell, I loved him for his looks and character but he used to wee on my daughter's bicycle, drove her nuts it did.

 

[Tranona]

As Pete says the only way you will find out first hand is to try it in flat water with plenty of space. 5ft does not seem a long keel on a 34ft boat. It is not necessarily the length of keel that is the issue. A longish keel but with a separate rudder well aft will behave differently from a full keel with attached rudder and prop in an aperture, for example. Windage can also have a big influence.

If you say what boat it is others may have experience they can share with you.

 

[ChrisE]

+1

We have same *challenge*. Prop walk is first thing to master then if there's any kind of a breeze does the bow or stern blow to wind, chances are the bow will want to blow downwind and this can be a help or hindrance but if you are expecting it you've a chance. You'll probably need more than five feet to get any steerage, if any at all, and you might need to be moving quite quickly to get it which can be a bit nerve racking in close quarters but it does work.

Best of luck with your new purchase.

 

[MARNEN]

We have a 32 footer with a long keel, bit heavier than 5 tonnes. We use fenders on both sides, plenty of warps and sometimes a scrap of genoa to get us out of the odd marina berth. No way would I attempt to reverse into one, just no directional control at all. So go in forwards and reverse out, or if the berth is big enough warp her round once in and then motor out forwards. We spend a good bit of time considering the best way into or out of a given situation and get great satisfaction when it works well. Good luck.

 

[ctelfer38]

hi, you'll get lots of replies I'm sure. Here is mine.
1. Whilst tied up, check which way the prop thrust throws the water when going astern. Your stern will tend to 'walk' in the opposite direction when under way astern with the prop turning. That is useful if that is the way you wish to go, less so when you do not.
2. Start with your helm amidships and when starting to move astern keep your revs down and do not be tempted to go too fast. Keep a firm grasp of the tiller.
3. Once you have started to move astern, be ready to go to neutral to eliminate the prop walk and move your rudder only the minimum either way to move in the direction you want. Small corrections are better than large ones.
4. Engage stern drive as you lose way; but be ready to go into neutral as soon as you have the right amount of way on.
5. Repeat the above as long as necessary. You can hold straight a course astern or turn easily in the direction of your prop 'walk'.

The above is a bit simplistic as the tidal stream in the marina and wind effect on your topsides will also be factors to be considered; but the points suggested are fundamental in coping with reversing a longer keel yacht.

Edit; too slow! others beat me to it!

Hope this helps.

CBT

 

[pvb]

A 5ft keel isn't "long". You shouldn't have any problems, once you get accustomed to the boat. My boat has a proper long keel, and it's manageable in reverse, and I usually singlehand it. You need to learn the propwalk characteristic and consider the forces (wind, etc) acting on the boat. If anything, a long keel can be an advantage in a marina as it reduces the tendency for the boat to get blown sideways.

 

[vyv_cox]

We watched a couple reverse an old long-keeler perfectly, by trailing a galvanised bucket on a line over the bow. Made a tricky operation simple.

 

[Conachair]

Most of the time I've managed solo on a 10t 33' by just walking the boat out then hop on board when the beams's about the end of the finger and give the bow a shove at the same time, maybe another little shove with a boathook.
No good if you're getting blown on though. Using the engine giving it a good blast for a few seconds then into neutral helps limit the propwalk a bit.

 

[jwilson]

A 5ft keel isn't "long". You shouldn't have any problems, once you get accustomed to the boat. My boat has a proper long keel, and it's manageable in reverse, and I usually singlehand it. You need to learn the propwalk characteristic and consider the forces (wind, etc) acting on the boat. If anything, a long keel can be an advantage in a marina as it reduces the tendency for the boat to get blown sideways.

I agree: having gone from a true heavy long-keeler that totally would not steer in astern except in circles to port, to a modern deep fin and spade, that reverses in any direction beautifully, I actually find some marina berthing situations much WORSE with the modern boat - as the bows blow off so fast. This made worse by the old boat having hanked on sails so little windage forward, and the new one having a roller genoa so more forward windage.

With a 5 foot long keel you are half way between, you should have enough keel to stop the bows blowing off fast, yet with a separate rudder/skeg you should be able to steer astern reasonably well.

On moderate fin/skeg boats a quick blast astern to get moving then tickover astern or even neutral often gives better control being established quicker than just using steady power, though the stern will kick one way with the initial burst.

You need to play with the boat in empty water quite a lot, preferably the first time you take it out.... If it is the first time you are leaving the berth in an unfamiliar boat, there's nothing wrong with getting a few people to help with warps and fenders. I''d not start off with a plan that requires you to reverse a long way under control. Better to turn her first, with warps if necessary if the berth is really tight.

 

[V1701]

The Vega is just about the worst boat in the world for reversing. I just back out slowly, doesn't matter what I do with the tiller, the wind takes the nose so depending on how strong the wind is & from which direction it's blowing I can end up either facing in the right direction or facing in completely the wrong direction or anywhere in between. I then make however many it takes point turn until I am facing the right direction with bursts of throttle. Getting the nose through the wind if that's necessary is the only real issue, bear that in mind whilst you're manoeuvring. If you're not singlehanded, someone giving the bow a nudge in the right direction as you reverse out can be a big help...

 

[ianj99]

hi, you'll get lots of replies I'm sure. Here is mine.
1. Whilst tied up, check which way the prop thrust throws the water when going astern. Your stern will tend to 'walk' in the opposite direction when under way astern with the prop turning. That is useful if that is the way you wish to go, less so when you do not.
2. Start with your helm amidships and when starting to move astern keep your revs down and do not be tempted to go too fast. Keep a firm grasp of the tiller.
3. Once you have started to move astern, be ready to go to neutral to eliminate the prop walk and move your rudder only the minimum either way to move in the direction you want. Small corrections are better than large ones.
4. Engage stern drive as you lose way; but be ready to go into neutral as soon as you have the right amount of way on.
5. Repeat the above as long as necessary. You can hold straight a course astern or turn easily in the direction of your prop 'walk'.

The above is a bit simplistic as the tidal stream in the marina and wind effect on your topsides will also be factors to be considered; but the points suggested are fundamental in coping with reversing a longer keel yacht.

Edit; too slow! others beat me to it!

Hope this helps.

CBT

Yes +1. Mine is 36' 9.8 reg tonnage. I also do as was mentioned by Conachair - walk it in and out of the berth (I'm usually single handed).
To aid this I use a single fore-aft spring line (which is left dropping over the side when at sea - see below for why), so I can control both ends with one line. It's also handy for returning to the berth since once on the pontoon I take a few turns around the mid pontoon cleat then she can't go far. Much simpler than having two separate lines.
Finally, in the event of me going overboard, even wearing a safety line, I can use the droop in the line to aid getting back on board (kneel and then stand on it, whilst edging to towards the stern). Without it, I doubt I'd have the strength to haul myself up the safety line. Might look untidy but so what.

 

[V1701]

Yes +1. Mine is 36' 9.8 reg tonnage. I also do as was mentioned by Conachair - walk it in and out of the berth (I'm usually single handed).
To aid this I use a single fore-aft spring line (which is left dropping over the side when at sea - see below for why), so I can control both ends with one line. It's also handy for returning to the berth since once on the pontoon I take a few turns around the mid pontoon cleat then she can't go far. Much simpler than having two separate lines.
Finally, in the event of me going overboard, even wearing a safety line, I can use the droop in the line to aid getting back on board (kneel and then stand on it, whilst edging to towards the stern). Without it, I doubt I'd have the strength to haul myself up the safety line. Might look untidy but so what.

Now that sounds well worth a try...

 

[TonyBuckley]

Many thanks to all!

She is a Grampian 34 - few have heard of her as few were made - Canadian 1979.

And she is 12,000 lb. Who knows what difference there is between UK and US systems of weight - I get confused. She may be 20,000 tons for all I know. I do know my Trapper is a quarter tonner. So this a bit different.

I have decided to hire a school skipper on the sea trial - what a wimp I know, but there is never anything wrong in a bit of a refresher (and new) training. Plus it will be out of Chichester where I have never been.

So I like the idea of power and then neutral repeatedly to drift her out.

That's if I can work out how to start an ancient Lister 30hp 3 cylinder. Unfortunately it seems the current owner is too poorly to attend maybe.

Thanks,

Tony

 

[westernman]

A real long keeler will have a mind of its own when reversing. She will take absolutely no notice whatsoever of the rudder. (Actually not quite true - at 5 knots in reverse with the engine in neutral after about 1/2 mile of runup in flat no wind conditions, she will just about response to the rudder, but it is rather rare I find myself with that kind of space to play with).

So you need to learn where she is going to want to go when in reverse and learn how to get to where you want to be with that. With practice it becomes almost second nature.

I can now park stern to with confidence almost anywhere. But for the first couple of years I was terrified of entering an unknown marina and relied on marineros in rubber boats to help out.

Nothing replaces practice. So each time you go out or come back and have time to spare, find an empty fuel berth and practice parking. After a while you will find you can do it easily.

The same really applies for a short keel AWB as well - it just behaves differently. You get some response to the rudder while reversing, the short bursts of full power washing over the rudder in a long keeler has less effect in a short keeler and in a short keeler the bow blows off faster.

Just a different set of difficulties to learn to get used to and take into account when manoevering.

 

[PhillM]

I have decided to hire a school skipper on the sea trial - what a wimp I know, but there is never anything wrong in a bit of a refresher (and new) training. Plus it will be out of Chichester where I have never been.

Tony

I got frustrated when I could not reverse my boat (3 ton long keel, wooden). Seller never told me that was going to be "challenge" but I know that now.

RAY active marina, RYA Yachtmaster came to give is an hour boat handling. 2 hours latter he pretty much gave up. If the wind didnt get the bow, the tide did. So here are my top tips (I am still very much a novice):


1) Lots of fenders - both side and a roaming one for the stern
2) Do everything slow and dont be afraid to ask onlookers for help
3) Think about how you will get out, before you go in
4) Expect the unexpected
5) Smile a lot (no fixed grin here) and be sure to make friends with the people who's boats you end up rafting to


What used to be a stressful experence is now much more fun. We get to meet new people and make friends all the time - unline those boats who just twiddle witha joystick and "park" stern in.

p.s For the aviodance of doubt,. we have never hit another boat or caused damage, nor would we make light of it if we did. The "slow" bit is the important one.

 

[Elessar]

Hi there,

Thinking of getting a new boat and for the first time considering a long keel.

She's 34ft and 5 tonne. The keel is not that long - I reckon five feet?

My current boat is a Trapper 300 (26ft fin keel) and she reverses lovely with steerage after about five feet. In fact, I often reverse her into a marina finger.

Haven't had the sea trial yet, but bricking it about reversing from the marina berth - probably on my own.

What could/should I expect? Some things I have read says she will go anywhere she wants in reverse regardless of wheel position. I don't even know the forward turning circle yet.

I also don't know what the prop wash is like.

So should I put loads of power on or just drift out on very very low power. I want to avoid wrapping around the finger. And yes of course there is wind to consider but no tide.

Thanks for any suggestions - I realise a stupid question as every boat is different, but generally...

Tony

strap the rudder centrally, fit ear plugs, fit a bowthruster and use it as a rudder when going astern. Easy.
The earplugs are to ignore the people who think you're not a real sailor if you do it the hard way for the sake of it.

 

[sailorman]

you didnt mention using a warp to control the manoeuvre

I got frustrated when I could not reverse my boat (3 ton long keel, wooden). Seller never told me that was going to be "challenge" but I know that now.

RAY active marina, RYA Yachtmaster came to give is an hour boat handling. 2 hours latter he pretty much gave up. If the wind didnt get the bow, the tide did. So here are my top tips (I am still very much a novice):


1) Lots of fenders - both side and a roaming one for the stern
2) Do everything slow and dont be afraid to ask onlookers for help
3) Think about how you will get out, before you go in
4) Expect the unexpected
5) Smile a lot (no fixed grin here) and be sure to make friends with the people who's boats you end up rafting to


What used to be a stressful experence is now much more fun. We get to meet new people and make friends all the time - unline those boats who just twiddle witha joystick and "park" stern in.

p.s For the aviodance of doubt,. we have never hit another boat or caused damage, nor would we make light of it if we did. The "slow" bit is the important one.

 

[pvb]

So I like the idea of power and then neutral repeatedly to drift her out.

I find that it's useful sometimes, whilst moving astern, to select forward gear, put the helm over, and give a quick burst to straighten the boat up. The inertia of several tons of boat won't allow this to slow the rearward progress very much.