long keel boats to windward?

Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

Pure magic, but at one heck of a price.

Otherwise

http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

http://www.sailmag.com/test/bookreviewspage/

Victoria 26/aka Vancouver 26 - rock and roll. Nice boat but the shoal draft is too shoal draft and there is insufficient ballast. Approx 2nd hand cost : £18-26k

Albin Vega - Almost a good boat but not so good going to windward in a nice F7+ : £9 - 15k [Sorry Steve, but they remind me of a coffin - a very dreay interior.]

Twister - Holmans answer to Van der Stadt's answer to the Folkboat - Perhaps one of the best of the Folkboat derivitives: £18-34k

Vertue - See Twister £13-22k

Stella, Folkdancer etc $6-9k .... Also rans to the Twister

Contessa 26 - A masthead Folkboat with an extra plank. He borrowed, nay stole most of the design from Van der Stadt and made it better. A VERY DRY boat - All you do is to add a streamlined sprayhood. Comparable to a Black's Mountain Tent below ie very cosy. £8-14k [Note that Jeremy Rogers boat is a CO26 ... Not a CO32 or any other of the CO varieties that he built .... Just a plain old CO26 /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ]

Jouets - Nice designs - BUT serious deck joint and chain plate ploblems. £4k absolute MAX.

Elizabethan xx/Halcyon 27 .... Both are perhaps the most beautiful of the small long keelers out of the water. Sad thing is that they are most under masted hence under canvassed as they underdid the IOR rule .... [No price given]

There seem to be 2 types of derivitive: 1) the Folkboat derivitive and 2) the BCPC (Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter) derivitive. As far as I know there is no rerivitive that combines the best of the long keel hull with the cut-away forefoot type hull.

Anyway, back to what are the origins of your question, most boats today are masthead. To get them to go to windward if you take the LWL to the P (from IJPE) then that ratio has to be at least 2.1 : 3.2 with a P to J ratio of 3.2 : 1. (See Roussemaniere "The desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore yachts." TC-CCA 1987)

Essential reading is Ferenc Mate "The Worlds Best Sailboats" Vols 1 & 2; John Vigor's "20 Small Sailboats to take you anywhere" and John Neal's http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

CO26?? Twister?? or if you've won the lottery a BCC /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Buy a Twister

Has the bottom fallen out of the Twister market?
£10,000 for a Halcyon is in my range, as much as I would like a Twister £20,000 is to high for me.
If our Halcyon can do two Atlantic crossing, that's good enough sea keeping for me.

Brian
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

Blimey! I suppose any boat could be considered 'dry' if you cringe beneath a 'stream-lined' sprayhood! All I know, from hundreds of miles of sailing the Contessa 26, is that it IS a VERY wet boat! Like all similar designs, she tends to drive through the water rather than go over it. Nothing at all wrong with that, but with her fine bow sections, it's common to have damn near solid water streaming aft.

True, if you are athletic and quick, you can duck, but if not, qiute simply - you get wet!
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

[Twister - Holmans answer to Van der Stadt's answer to the Folkboat - Perhaps one of the best of the Folkboat derivitives: £18-34k]

dont confuse Kims Stella ( similar to FB) with his Fine Twister
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

Victoria 26 is NOT aka as Vancouver 26.
There is no such boat as a Vancouver 26.
There is a Vancouver 27 and there is a Vancouver 28 both of which which are far superior to any of the yachts so far mentioned on this theread.
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

Ok, unashamedly biased plug for the Cutlass 27 here!

27' LOA 20' LWL and a traditional long keel. 3 tons displacement and only 7'8" beam. The latter makes it unusually quick for a tradidional long-keeler with a modest sail area but means there's not much room down below. We changed from lift-keel light displacement 22 footer because we were fed up getting picked up by waves and knocked backwards. The Cutlass just slices through them with a nice easy motion. On a few occasions we have been able to make excellent progress hard on the wind compared to other cruising boats of similar waterline length. When we had a hank-on Genoa, the pointing ability was amazing! (not quite as good not its roller-reefing).

As has been said, they don't go backwards under power very well. -But they are cheap!
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

Are those words based on your own experience or something you've lifted from the pages of a book or Mag? Often articles are written basing opinions on stats, and often boats, espescially some of the older designs perform quite differently to how one might expect on paper.
I have never heard an owner of a Liz 29 (and I know several)complain about lack of performance! However, you certainly don't have to reef early.
The Liz 30 is also a very capable boat and within the sort of price range mentioned although, of course, not long keeled.
 
Re: Agree with that one.

Very true M. At the end of the day use books like good yacht guide to draw up a list of possibles, see which ones are available on the market at the time and be prepared to invest the time in going to look at them, preferably having trial sails in those that spark your interest.
It's worth investing the time to find that boat that suits you and your requirements best (espescially where brokerage fees are involved)!
Never be in a hurry to buy!
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

My wife and I sail a Twister and it is, by a long shot, the best of all boats mentioned in this thread! I'm not really biassed!! Their only shortcoming is in the accomodation stakes by modern standards. As to price 20 - 25k is average, however they can and do change hands for a lot less if you're prepared to put the graft in. I know of one bought earlier this year for 10k.
 
Re: Agree with that one.

I suppose that one could comment based on:

a) personal experience

b) the comments of friends whose experience one respects

c) one's understanding of yacht design.

d) comments in magazines

but I think one should make it clear where one's comment is coming from.

On the basis of (c) plus (a), windward ability, comes expensive - the rig needs to be better, the boat needs to have a high ballast ratio (a very expensive feature, because everything else in the boat needs to be both stronger and lighter) and the accomodation is cramped because of the desirability of low freeboard and narrow beam. But a boat that will really go to windward can be a source of great pleasure.
 
Re: Agree with that one.

Yep. My new old boat goes to windward like an absolute witch, but was never a boat that I would have considered based on Stats.
It was the comments and enthusiasm of the very vigorous owners assosciation that encouraged me to keep an open mind and go for a look see.
Usually find the owners of 'good' boats are only too ready and proud to take you for a test sail. I once went for a test sail on a Dufour arpege and it so reminded the owner what a joy she was to sail that he took her off the market and decided to spend his money refitting her rather than buying something newer and 'better'.
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

I don't think you are necessarily that biased - well perhaps just a bit! Still, I think it's with every justification. I think the Twisters are super boats and I had many a lovely sail on one owned by a friend of mine until a few years ago. As you say, a bit small for her length by modern standards, but that's a small price to pay IMHO for the overall sailing qualities. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The only thing I think I'd adivse a propective owner about would be the composite ones - grp hull and wooden coachroof. I looked at a couple of these when I was considering Twister and found the deck/hull joint a bit 'careworn' in both I inspected. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Presumably these still fetch less money than the all grp versions so may be within gibbo's price range, so if he's prepared to wait for a 'good 'un' or carry out any reasonable remedial work, it would be a sensible buy for him. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
y long keel, they dont go backwards in marinas


[/ QUOTE ]
My Halcyon 27 does! You just need to learn how to do it. I reverse out of the finger and then right out into the river before going ahead. She'll spin-turn to starboard as well with alternate use of forward/reverse. I think the long rudder and VP prop are a great help. Tracks well on all points of sailing. The H27, Contessa and a few others like this are all based on the folkboat design, but offer more room, especially the H27.
 
Re: Don\'t listen to any of the replies ... Go for a Lyle Hess BCC

Not sure if the Twister was an answer to Van der Stadt's folkboat.
His 29ft. version (Trintella or Tufglas) is an exhillerating sail to windward, fast off the wind and suprisingly good in lighter airs. Twister not in the same league. They are going to change my handicap !
Ken
 
I have a long keeler, Nicholson 38, she loves going to windward, especially a close reach, really lifts her skirts with an easy helm, but doesn't like light winds at all. Other than the fun reversing in marinas which gets better the more you do it wouldn't change it.
Mike
 
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