Long Keel and handling

[Athene V30]

Oo er missus!

I hadn't realised that a long keel would make such a huge difference! In the Crouch on Sat I slipped from the buoy and motored and/or sailed (reefed main only) up to North Fambridge (no cone - sorry ) where I turned to lay alongside a friends boat on the moorings for a chat. All the boats were lying across the stream to the wind (F5?) and turning to parallel his boat the tide just took me up river. Second attempt was better. Learning curve time!

Next Sat I will be going into Burnham Yacht Harbour. WATCH OUT for a MAB with loads of fenders going sideways!

 

[MoodySabre]

From what I hear about longkeelers it is coming out of your marina berth that is fun (for spectators)

 

[tillergirl]

Yes, all these modern flighty swingy lie to the wind sorts of things. Not the way to go at all. I've been going sideways so long now I thought it was the only way to do it.

 

[Leighb]

A friend with many years of long keel experience gave me this piece of advice.

"A long keel yacht will always go one way when going astern, the trouble is you never know WHICH way"

A review in a yachting mag some years ago of our class - Halmatic 30 - said of the handling under power astern, "like all long keeled yachts she was entirely predictable in her unpredictability"

How right he was!!

Don't have a Plan A when coming out of a marina, you need at least A - Z and even then you will get a surprise!

Seriously the problem is not so bad, but be ready to deal with whatever behaviour you get on the day. At least it is never boring.

 

[SwedishLass]

I am slowly learning to shorten the odds in my favour. Have found the gears and throttle to be far better than the tiller, in fact hanging on to the tiller and waggling it in the general direction of where you hope to go just makes you feel better.

Find a quiet stretch of river and get a feel for reversing with short burst of half astern before letting it drift back under sort of rudder control. Prop kick was barely noticeable on Joann but a blast of astern can swing SL 30 degrees before she starts moving back at any speed. Keeping the power on just seems to render the tiller useless. Having worked out the easiest direction to turn is clockwise it becomes the manoeuver of choice sometimes at the expense of common sense.

 

[tillergirl]

After 18 years with TG, I have a 'map' of her performance astern. She will do one of three things.

a. Turn nicely with the prop to starboard. I find this happens when there is no room to starboard
b. Crab off in a sideways motion with stern to starboard gradually sagging off downwind. I find this happens if there is a sharp obect to leeward
c. Go perfectly straight astern. I find this happens if there is no one around or when I want the prop to take command and turn to starboard.

The problem is that even knowing what she will do leaves you with the problem that she will not do anything else. Curiously I find that in Ramsgit she always reverses round to starboard irrespective of which way you want to go. I need room therefore to scribe a virtual n in the water to exit. If there's room there is no smugger b**t**d afloat that day.

Now our previous boat. There was a thing. We had a long keel and a quater installation and a variable pitch prop. Eat your heart out Flipper, that's a real challenge.

A variable pitch prop means that the prop never stops going around - unless of course the engine stops at a critical moment. This means that you have to find neutral and in the early days we didn't have a proper lever to control the pitch which meant that the torque would naturally start winding the pitch back on. Now you could never tell whether that would be into ahead or astern but you could rely on it to put into full ahead or full astern. This meant that on approaching a marina berth you had to have everything ready and when close enough, leap and in a desperate rush take a turn around both fore and aft dock cleats. By this time passers-by would be asking why we never put the engine into neutral! Ah you ask, why didn't we stop the engine. Well it had one of those buttons to press and you had to wait until the engine stopped spinning or it would start again the moment you took your finger off the button. By which time of course the bowspirit (did I mention that) would be wreking havoc. There was one clever trick though - turn to starboard in full ahead, half way through the turn, bring the pitch to slightly astern, put over the helm and wind on the reverse pitch and she would turn in her own length.

 

[pyrojames]

A friend with many years of long keel experience gave me this piece of advice.

"A long keel yacht will always go one way when going astern, the trouble is you never know WHICH way"

I don't quite have that problem. I have a wing prop, and the stern always goes to port when going astern. At least it is predictable, and increasing revs gives me some control over how quickly I go to port.

Sometimes (nearly always) it dictates which marina (if any) I go into!

 

[Roach1948]

At only 22ft I find marinas always have the compulsion of putting me in the most impossible of corners - even when they are empty. At three tons, the keel of a much larger boat, and an 8inch prop; astern is practically non-existant. I have learnt two things from this:

1. I now take more responsibility for the berthing selection in a marina's. When berthing instructions are given on the radio the reception usually breaks up at that point and I respond with "Last transmission unclear - single-handed, will come alongside empty hammerhead and wait for further instructions there". I rarely get moved on, but if I am I have....

2. ...Learnt how to warp boats around a marina on my own quite well.

 

[bendyone]

Having just changed to a long deep keel this is getting me worried. Having only done 3 reversing's and a 3 point turn so far maybe I've been lucky. Prop walk to port but not excessive, all done in low wind and no tidal flow.
I guess time will tell.

 

[tillergirl]

How come you all go to port with prop walk and I go to starboard? I thought all modern engines went the same way?

 

[Leighb]

Depends on prop rotation. Our Volvo MD7 has a LH prop so stern goes to starboard in astern.

Or at least that is what the book says! The boat has not read the book!

It may be that Volvos rotate opposite way to Betas etc.?

 

[tillergirl]

Your right, Betas are RH at the gearbox but left at the flywheel. So do you think Volvo starter motors go the opposite way round to Beta starter motors. (you can tell I'm bored. Sitting in waiting for a telephone call)

I remember going to port once. Couldn't understand it; still don't understand it. I assumed since there was no wind that there was a strange underwater current. It goes without saying that I was intending to go to starboard!

 

[DanTribe]

When I had a Stella, the method was to see which way she wanted to go, then adapt the plan accordingly, pretending that it was what you had intended all along.
She preferred to turn clockwise so this sometimes meant turns of 275 degrees to enter a berth.
When cruising in Holland we soon learnt the words "lange kiel". Call that out and lock keepers & harbourmasters expect you to do strange gyrations.

It was good to see you on the river on Saturday.

 

[Athene V30]

It was good to see you on the river on Saturday.

Thanks for the pics. It seemed quite windy at the time hence 2 reefs in the main. I would have put the jib up too going upstream but I rigged the sheets the wrong side of the shrouds and when trying to rerig nearly landed on the bank so I don't have a lot of faith in the tiller pilot yet! Still first time out, no one hurt and no damage - RESULT!

 

[Cotillion]

Long Keel certainties

As a fully paid up member of the long keel club. I can assure you that going astern is wholey predictable.

Forget prop walk, tiller, wheel whatever. It is certain that as soon as astern is engaged the transom will INSIST on facing the wind. So to get yourself successfully out of a marina berth will require some strategicly placed warps to make sure the bow is facing the exit. Reversing out of the marina is NEVER AN OPTION, even when you think the wind is in your favour.

I was allocated a berth at the weekend that would in all probability have required a tow to get out the following day, so try and think in advance of what problems might have to be faced not only getting in but also the retreat and ask for an easier option if one is available.

 

[Toutvabien]

Warping boats out of tight corners.

I am with Cotillion, warps are the way to go to control long keel boats in close quarters. Jigsaw is about 38ft long, is very heavy and has lots of freeboard. We have learnt to ensure that when exiting a marina berth in reverse the direction of turn is managed with the use of a very very long warp (known locally as Big Bertha) from the quarter to a cleat on the pontoon, or a neighbouring boat. We use a pull on this to pivot the bow towards the direction we wish to leave. We have also got to know which berths are not tenable for our boat and are clear with berthing masters what we can and cannot do.

When I see lads on boats reversing along between 50 metre long rows of berths at about 4 knots whilst sipping tea and chatting to their mates I often throw things at them, I assume that other owners of long keel boats feel this way too??????

 

[Toutvabien]

Big Bertha

We rig it doubled as a slip, (making sure that it is able to run freely and not snag or twist) from the quarter towards which we intend to turn. Reversing out under control of the slip by using light tension if needed to hold it against the prop walk, once the bow of the boat is able to freely pivot around (and not bash the boat alongside) just stopping the line slipping usually produces enough force to bring the stern round as desired.

The line is not a "floater", but it is recovered so quickly that it does not have time to sink.

Now and again I try and turn the boat out of a berth without the warp, I usually regret it (especially if there is a breeze).

Hope this is clear enough??
Paul.

 

[Otter]

At only 22ft I find marinas always have the compulsion of putting me in the most impossible of corners -

1. I now take more responsibility for the berthing selection in a marina's. When berthing instructions are given on the radio the reception usually breaks up at that point and I respond with "Last transmission unclear - single-handed, will come alongside empty hammerhead and wait for further instructions there". I rarely get moved on, but if I am I have....

Or announce that you are a 22m yacht, they'll see flashing £ signs and give you a hammerhead with en-suite swinging room. When berthed explain you always get ft and metres confused.

 

[Athene V30]

How come you all go to port with prop walk and I go to starboard? I thought all modern engines went the same way?

Had a practice in the Crouch on Sat before entering BYH and was convinced stern would walk to port as that is what it did for me 3 times.

So leaving on Sun morning Stbd side on D pontoon wanted to get out of berth and take stern to port then go ahead out of marina. Pushed boat out of berth (with SWMBO holding tiller to stbd to start turn to port & small son on port bow with fender). First bit of stern power and stern starts to go to Stbd seeking the wind! Needed to keep going astern to clear next door boat & stop bow swiping it.

Make sternboard up between the rows of boats and then carried out a very tight turn to port using bursts of thrust rather than allowing speed to build up. Some very worried looking folk in a small power boat but missed everyone so will mark that down as a success!

Just as well I don't do marinas often.

SWMBO was heard to comment later that she felt much more secure in Karouise than in Flipper or previous boat.

 

[Dizzy101]

I don't quite have that problem. I have a wing prop, and the stern always goes to port when going astern. At least it is predictable, and increasing revs gives me some control over how quickly I go to port.

Sometimes (nearly always) it dictates which marina (if any) I go into!

How did you find Royal Harwich this weekend then.

I am sure I spotted you there on Saturday after the crabbing competition!

John