Long Island Poole Harbour Saga Continued

robyonfrome

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Having called at the Rempstone Estate office twice and not being able to discuss this matter with anyone, I surprisingly received a letter from their solicitors, ‘Wilsons’ at Salisbury. Drawing my attention to the booklet produced by Poole Harbour Commissioners “The Poole Harbour Guide 2009” which states
“While in the Harbour. Do not land in unauthorised places. The foreshores of the southern side of the Harbour and on the islands in the Harbour are private property and permission of the owner must be obtained before landing.” The Rempstone Estates have obviously embraced this paragraph to justify their ruling, but is the guide book a legal declaration against the law of the land. The Harbour Masters office have now cooled off from their original stance, when I was told, I can definitely land on the foreshore to, “I should be able to land on the foreshore” as the land belongs to the crown and only the crown has the authority to - Yes! Yes! we know that, but their still throwing people off. This is clearly a black and white matter, we either have the right, or we don’t. If this situation is allowed to carry on, boaters will not be able to land any where inside the harbour.
Where do I go from here ???????????????

This was my original blog which the above is relating to, just in case you missed it.
Last Saturday I was on the foreshore of long island when I was told that I could not land as it was private property. The reason why people want to land there is because its got a lovely sandy beach with a sandbar that runs out and children love to play in the safe shallow waters. The chap that told me appears to be living on the island in a barge and told me he was acting on the instructions of the Rempstone Estate. I argued that I didn’t think they could stop you landing between the mean high water and low water marks but he disputed the fact and I had to leave. I consulted Ian Bishop, the deputy harbour master of Poole harbour this morning and he confirmed that you can definitely land on the foreshore up to the high water mark. Another interesting fact is that the barge on which the groundsman of the island lives on, is allegedly moored there illegally. Although I can understand the Rempstone Estate wanting the island for their own pleasure, this must not interfere with the rights that so many families have enjoyed for umpteen years and although a few people tend to abuse the island, lighting fires and leaving rubbish there ( which I have picked up on occasions) this is not justification for the few to ruin the enjoyment of the vast majority of responsible boaters and its caused a lot of ill feeling.
 
Well done for fighting and keep going. When will the "press" (e.g. YM, PBO) actually pick up a decent story and run with it. Or perhaps it's easier to review a shiny white bath tub in the Solent ;-)

The problem is once you have one set of lawyers involved - unless someone pays for another set to argue they win by default.

I am not lawyer - but surely qouting from the HM's booklet means they must be scratching around for a *decent* legal precedent.

Quite tempted to beach my cat within 10 cm's of the lowtide mark on particular day - surely there is NOTHING they can do about that but I wouldn't think it would impress the new owners !
 
The Poole Harbour Guide does not over-ride the law of the land. The beach below HW mark belongs to the Crown and unless you get a letter from Her Maj, telling you not to trespass, there is nothing to stop you being there. It's nothing to do with Rempstone Estates because it's not their property. The more I think about this, the more I reckon there should be some kind of mass trespass.

There's also the matter of the "Right to Roam" proposals put forward a couple of years ago, though things seem to have gone very quiet on that front.

The only motivation for all this nonsense is greed. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
I note that the Solicitors contact details are on the web

Wilsons solicitors

I for one am drafting an email to them.

I would hate to think that their clients will get charged at gosh knows what an hour for every 15 minutes they spend writing a reply to each one of us.

That would be just terrible wouldn't it ?

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
So am I hired as a lawyer yet ?

I quite enjoyed writing this !

I have just send this off (the formatting works better in the version I sent)

"Dear Sirs,
It is my understanding that you act on behalf of Rempstone Estate in the matter of landing on the foreshore of Long Island, Poole Harbour.
If I am mistaken please accept my apologies and if possible let me know who I should contact with respect to this matter.
I, as have many yachtsmen, been a regular visitor to the anchorage adjacent to Long Island for many years. I have on many occasions landed on the foreshore of Long Island.
It has recently come to my attention that agents for the Rempstone Estate are preventing people landing in this manner and have made allegations that this trespassing.
I would like at this point to make clear distinction between landing on the foreshore, the area below the High Water mark and landing on your client’s property, Long Island itself above the High Water mark.
I believe you will find the foreshore is not owned by your client and as such you and your client have no rights to prevent or otherwise discourage landing on it.
You may find the following information useful in clarifying this position
Halsbury’s Laws (4th edition) Vol. 8, paragraph 1418, describes the foreshore "land between high and low water mark, the right being limited landwards to the medium line of the high tide between spring and neap tides".
I, and I am sure many other yachtsmen will continue to land on the foreshore and would appreciate if you could make clear to Rempstone Estates and their agents that this is quite within the law and we are perfectly entitled to do so.
In order to make the public position clear I would like to retain the right to make any correspondence on this matter public.
Regards,"

I will of course publish any response I get. Anyone else writing a (better I am sure) letter/email ?
 
So my club ( all seventeen power cruisers) and I am going to have to make other arrangements for our beach Bar-b -que then? How is it known that the inhabited barge is moored illegally? is it situated betwen low and high water, ie on crown property? isn`t this area an "area of natural beauty" and thus no permanent mooring is allowed? does it have red squirrels in residence or rare orchids?
 
we used to have these issues in scotland before the land access act 2004, although not often on beaches.

if someone asks you to leave a piece of land, politely decline, and invite them to phone the police. the police will generally also politely decline to attend as its a civil not criminal matter, and they have more important things to do etc. difficult if you got kids with you though. no one can ask you to leave land beneath high water, its the crown's (as above)

good luck with the mass trespass there's a long history of similar such occasions!
 
Never argue day is night with a lawyer...

So I recieved this reply. I think you *might* have the right to dig for bait on the foreshore but I am no lawyer.

I find it interesting that he still refers back to a "Harbour Guide" if they had a really strong case I am sure they would quote some specific law. But we would need a lawyer or someone more up to speed to argue this.

Quite impressed they replied to an email in 24 hours though. Any see a a way forward from here ?

There is nothing to stop/all other from emailing on the same issue with there views/arguments....

Email text quoted below.

______________

Thank you for your e-mail and I confirm that we act for the Rempstone Estate, the owners of Long Island.

As you have referred me to Halsbury's Laws, may I return the compliment. Volume 49(2) paragraph 30 deals with the extent of the right of passage that people may have over the foreshore. The only rights over the foreshore are in the exercise of of navigation or fishery, or in respect of a lawfully dedicated right of way from one place to another over the foreshore. There is no general right of landing or embarking for pleasure on any part of the foreshore except in the case of peril or necessity.

You will no doubt be aware that the guide to the harbour issued by the harbourmaster specifically draws attention to the fact that there is no right to land on the foreshore of the islands in the harbour. Accordingly the estate does not accept that yachtsmen have the right to land on the foreshore.
____________
 
Re: Never argue day is night with a lawyer...

I'm no lawyer, but I thought that English law gave much more weight to precedent: i.e. finding a dusty volume doesn't count for a lot, unless you can also find a relevant case...

Also, does the lack of a "general right" mean that something is forbidden?

dv.
 
Re: Never argue day is night with a lawyer...

[ QUOTE ]
aware that the guide to the harbour issued by the harbourmaster specifically draws attention to the fact that there is no right to land on the foreshore of the islands in the harbour. Accordingly the estate does not accept that yachtsmen have the right to land on the foreshore.
____________

[/ QUOTE ]
The obvious reply would seem to be "That's all very interesting, but since the estate does not own the foreshore the use other people make of it is none of their business."
 
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