Lofrans cayman 88

Can any body say what an 1000 w motor should draw under load please
An induction motor will produce a variable amount of power and hence amps, subject to the load to which it it subjected, and they can be overloaded, although most will sustain a level of overload before overheating.

Depending upon the coils layout a motor will spin at a certain no load speed. With no load applied the current draw and hence power will be at its minimum, typically ~1/3 it's design maximum run amps, also known as Rated Load Amps or RLA. At minimum load the motor is also inefficient because it does not require 1/3 of its power rating just to keep the shaft spinning, and this inefficiency manifests as heat, although the motor can easily dissipate this heat.

As a load is applied it tends to slow the shaft, however induction motors are self governing due to an effect called induced current. The internal induced current opposes the forward driving current being fed in by the supply. As the shaft slows the induced current reduces, allowing the supply current to increase, this increases the shaft speed, in turn causing the induced current to increase, until the two balance, but at an increased supply level, and slightly reduced shaft speed. As load continues to increase this effect continues until the motor reaches its rated current. In selecting a motor the designer should use a motor that will satisfy the maximum applied load just below the point at which the motor reaches the FLA point. The reduction in shaft speed between minimum and maximum load is known as slip.

So what happens in an overload situation ?

The pure electrical resistance of a motor is far lower than that determined by considering that dictated by ohm's law, but as the motor runs the opposing current creates inductive resistance which adds to the pure resistance, so at any point in its operation, regardless of load, Ohm's Law is always satisfied. If the motor is overloaded, e.g. In the case of a windlass the cable becomes gradually snagged, the motor will be forced to slow down, in turn the inductive resistance will fall away to zero as the shaft stops, leaving the pure electrical resistance only opposing the current flow. At this point the motor will be heavily overloaded, and will draw Locked Rotor Amps (LRA). Indeed at initial start up the motor will also draw close to LRA as the power is first applied. LRA is typically 5 - 7 times the FLA, and whereas the motor windings can tolerate such an overload for a few seconds, the massive current is not producing any motive power, just torque, where it is trying to turn the load, and with it lots of heat, and sufficient to heat the field winding wires to the temperature at which the insulations will start to melt, and if this happens burnout will ensue. Once the insulations have broken down, the coils wires can short out, and the whole thing massively overheats and self destructs.

Between the FLA point, where the motor is producing its maximum rated power and the LRA point, when the shaft has stopped, the overload will progressively increase, and the motor will tolerate a certain level of overload without harm, e.g. ~10%.

So to answer your original question, subject to the applied load somewhere between 1/3 x FLA and 1 x FLA, which for your 1,000 watt motor running on a nominal 12v supply will be ~25 - 30 amps minimum, and ~85 - 90 amps maximum, allowing for the fact that at minimum load cables losses will be less, and the supply voltage will be closer to 13.5v, and at FLA point (1,000 watts) the cables losses will mean the local voltage will likely have dropped at least 1.5 - 2 volts to around 11.5 - 12v.

Hot spots on your supply cabling and distribution are adding to the overall circuit resistance, so are actually reducing the voltage available at the motor, in turn this will cause the motor amps to increase to maintain a particular load. So a 1,000 watt 12v motor will become an 830 watt motor if the supply it is seeing drops to 10v, whilst still not exceeding the FLA rating of the motor.

I hope this helps.
 
Vic,
I have one of these windlasses and can pull 100m of chain & a 30kg Anchor without tripping or overheating. Am I correct in believing that whilst doing all these tests etc that at no point have you unmounted the windlass. The reason I ask is if I recall correctly is that the wiring enters the windlass from below. Could the wiring have been trapped and / or damaged during installation resulting and a short each time you turn it on. Hence overloading, tripping breaker or overheating relay. A thought worth checking.

No Albert it's all fine
Ok end of sage .
It's all working normally , to day show at hardly no load i.e. Just picking up chain Amps around 80amps has the chain gets a bit tighter it's at working load 115Amps as soon as it got to take a bit of the boat weight in flat clam no wind the Amps rises to around 180Amp according to this guy who works a lot on these windlass he says this is normal , if I want it to be able To use that type of load , i would need o fit an 140 plus breaker and incress the cables to 50mm .
So it looks like we just going to have to work what we got,
as a rule we wouldn't push the the windlass as hard as we have ,
but imagin you are on own with a very light breeze trying to bring up the anchor , you be running back and fro switching the breaker .
 
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When we had a 1000 watt motor and 8mm chain (and 15kg anchor) we never tripped our 85 amp breaker. We are using the same breaker with our new 1000 watt motor on the Maxwell but only 6mm chain and a 8kg anchor and unsurprisingly we have never tripped the switch. Based on the superheat6k's post none of this is exceptional, nor is it useful as we are using little of the motor's potential - which is why we wanted the bigger motor (lots of spare power).

But I would not buy a Lofrans windlass - I think their support pretty appalling.

Jonathan
 
Well I have to say I am a bit dispointed .
If you look at their spec , we are well within them , so one would hope it could carry the weight they say it can .
I think it poor that it can't pull a boat forward without tripping a bigger trip then they say I need .
I got No reason why it melted the other soleniod . That's is a bit worrying as at the time it was a small solenoid we was using .
When asked about why it couldn't lift me up the mast when I was less half of the weigh they say it can lift , I was then bafted with , " it depend on how the rope runs and turns " it just when on and on ,
What he said was the installation was good the angled for the chair was all good and the wiring was good . He did at one point try to say it may be the wiring too small but 40mm is 5 mm bigger then what they suggest and we well within they limits of the cables runs .
If I cut corners fitting this I can understand ,
going by what there spec is and lets face it they would had done the sums . We well within it .
Oh well we live and learn , I just hope we don't get cross anchors or we never lift the bloody thing unless someone stand at the breaker with his/her finger on the breaker .
 
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Hi Vic,
A suggestion. To my simple mind you can easily determine whether it's the windlass or your wiring that's the problem. If you were to disconnect the windlass' motor and then select up/down on your windless' switch you should see almost no current going to the relay (the relay's coil will consume just a few milliamp). If you reconnect the windlass' motor, select up/down again and the current is high enough to overload the trip, then, your problem has to be in the winch. IMHO, and I'm open to being corrected, resistance in the wiring or connectors should not cause an overload. Any resistance should only serve to throttle the electrical supply.
By the way, are you still coming to Lefkas today?
Mike
 
Hi Vic,
A suggestion. To my simple mind you can easily determine whether it's the windlass or your wiring that's the problem. If you were to disconnect the windlass' motor and then select up/down on your windless' switch you should see almost no current going to the relay (the relay's coil will consume just a few milliamp). If you reconnect the windlass' motor, select up/down again and the current is high enough to overload the trip, then, your problem has to be in the winch. IMHO, and I'm open to being corrected, resistance in the wiring or connectors should not cause an overload. Any resistance should only serve to throttle the electrical supply.
By the way, are you still coming to Lefkas today?
Mike
Hi Mike
We just left about an hour ago , uch too bloody hot , off up north the find an anchorage .
Mike I don't own a clip on current meter , but the guys that turn up all had one so I can't do that test ,
I have to say the guy that came to day did seen to know his stuff .
For the first time ever tied back on the quay the windlass did pull the ropes without tripping (shocked :) .
He said it may get better as the bushes bed in , I not sure it will .
I started to think we asking too much of it , our quick on the other boat is also 1000 w , we got our anchor Jammed under a chain that run across an harbour some years back , if nearly forced the bow into the water trying to lift up what was holding it , but it never tripped it just stop going round , no chances doing that with this one ,
The old S&L which was on this boat although old early in the season lifted and old four legged fisherman with chain that's been left and out 20 kg anchor up to the boat . Maybe I should had saved a grand and kept it .
I bet if we had a couple of anchor on top it wouldn't lift .
As far as the wiring goes it fine Mike to be honest I knew this all the time , but I wanted other people take on it , Christ it six wires .
I started to have doubts on the boat wiring , but standing back and thinking about it , the other windlass 1000w worked fine so no reason I newer model shouldn't .
I puzzled on why the solenoid melted and even now if we over work it the solenoid gets warm . Although in normally use we won't be over working it .
What don't add up to me is , he said by putting on a larger breaker (140A) would only mean it wouldn't trip so easily but it wouldn't make any difference to the amount of current it tripped at . So the wiring would still be protected .
How do that work ?
Surely if an 125A tripped at 180A then an 140A breaker will trip when it reach a lot more Amps ,
so how comes with the wiring and motor be protected the same ?
I don't know I lost .
To be honest I had enough of it , and I guess so have the poor sod here that been trying to help me out .
 
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No Albert it's all fine
Ok end of sage .
It's all working normally , to day show at hardly no load i.e. Just picking up chain Amps around 80amps has the chain gets a bit tighter it's at working load 115Amps as soon as it got to take a bit of the boat weight in flat clam no wind the Amps rises to around 180Amp according to this guy who works a lot on these windlass he says this is normal , if I want it to be able To use that type of load , i would need o fit an 140 plus breaker and incress the cables to 50mm .
So it looks like we just going to have to work what we got,
as a rule we wouldn't push the the windlass as hard as we have ,
but imagin you are on own with a very light breeze trying to bring up the anchor , you be running back and fro switching the breaker .

Sorry to say this Vic, But it's B*****K's.
The windlass is designed and manufactured to work at a certain load. They have produced 100's if not 1000's of them and they all work fine. Why would your's be different unless there is a problem. They do not specify the size of cable and breaker for the fun of it, they know what they are talking about.

Yet you will accept what some unknown person says. Just increase the breaker size and cable.

Fires on boats happen mainly due to electrical issues. You have an electrical issue which needs resolving properly.

Albert
 
Sorry to say this Vic, But it's B*****K's.
The windlass is designed and manufactured to work at a certain load. They have produced 100's if not 1000's of them and they all work fine. Why would your's be different unless there is a problem. They do not specify the size of cable and breaker for the fun of it, they know what they are talking about.

Yet you will accept what some unknown person says. Just increase the breaker size and cable.

Fires on boats happen mainly due to electrical issues. You have an electrical issue which needs resolving properly.

Albert

Albert just send you an email , did try to call you but couldn't get. Through .
 
Sounds as though the problem lies in an excessive current draw in the windlass motor.
If it was a brand-new windlass, I'd suggest having this conversation with the manufacturers, rather than the well-meaning amateurs on this site.
 
Hi Vic, just read through the whole long story. I'm with Albert here, fitting an higher rated CB is likely to exacerbate an underlying problem. An 80A breaker will take some time to trip with higher currents unless its a short circuit current, there are two mechanisms in the CB dealing with those different scenarios. A transient overcurrent uses a thermal mechanism and can take many seconds to trip the circuit, depending on the overcurrent sensed. Hence its reasonable to specify an 80A breaker for a circuit that may sometimes pull 140A for short periods.

The only additional fault finding that I dont remember seeing in the text would be to put a voltmeter across whatever you can access at the windlass end of the circuit. Run the windlass and look at the voltage, a big drop might suggest the cable break that has been suggested. If it stays constant, or drops a little, then I'm inclined to a motor fault.

Edit: Actually superheat's suggestion in post 70 tests the cable better than my proposal, do that.
 
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Hi Vic, just read through the whole long story. I'm with Albert here, fitting an higher rated CB is likely to exacerbate an underlying problem. An 80A breaker will take some time to trip with higher currents unless its a short circuit current, there are two mechanisms in the CB dealing with those different scenarios. A transient overcurrent uses a thermal mechanism and can take many seconds to trip the circuit, depending on the overcurrent sensed. Hence its reasonable to specify an 80A breaker for a circuit that may sometimes pull 140A for short periods.

The only additional fault finding that I dont remember seeing in the text would be to put a voltmeter across whatever you can access at the windlass end of the circuit. Run the windlass and look at the voltage, a big drop might suggest the cable break that has been suggested. If it stays constant, or drops a little, then I'm inclined to a motor fault.

Edit: Actually superheat's suggestion in post 70 tests the cable better than my proposal, do that.
Asks for that Robbie , what I know for sure it nothing to do with the boat wiring .
Was about to email you .
Do it later .
 
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