Lofrans cayman 88

RichardS said:
That can't be right as it gives the same working current for the 12V and the 24V versions which is nonsense.

I'm not sure that I'd trust those figures but, either way, 117A working load is not that far away from 130A maximum you're seeing, if that's what the figures mean.

Richard
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It beg to think what can you believe , if has you say the figures are wrong , could it also mean that the breaker size is wrong , one step further why did the soleniod melt ?
I hoping for some answer this after noon but it been a real pain , I expected to remove one windlass with a new one , ok I had to make up a plate and redo the anchor locker , I didn't expect to have all this power problem .
 
sailaboutvic said:
It beg to think what can you believe , if has you say the figures are wrong , could it also mean that the breaker size is wrong , one step further why did the soleniod melt ?
I hoping for some answer this after noon but it been a real pain , I expected to remove one windlass with a new one , ok I had to make up a plate and redo the anchor locker , I didn't expect to have all this power problem .
Click to expand...

My breaker is a genuine Lewmar one, 185100P, 100a and has been on the boat for a number of years by the look of it. The contactor is also genuine Lewmar and i'll wager it was all fitted a good few years back as a packege, before i bought the boat. I'll run the windlass up with a clamp on ammeter.............................

OK, no chain or anchor (i'm in the marina). Tested using a Sealey clamp on analogue ammeter. After a very short startup surge, steady readings of :

At the battery positive (single 700CCA automotive engine battery) ; 50a
The battery positive at the contactor just under 50a
One of the much smaller cables from the contactor to the motor, about 9" from the motor, 60a

After doing the tests i ran the windlass with no load for a timed two minutes. With the motor cover still in place i could not feel any increase in temp.
 
Thanks Paul
The guy been and he think there an intermission break in the cable some where , , it's fine until it started to work hard .
he think it s the red cable when he tested it under load both cables went up to 175A .that 40A higher then yesterday .
So I now going to start ripping the inside out and replace the cable from the soleniod to the breaker , has he think that the likely place to be , not going to be an easy job ,
if that don't work I think I just replace all of it and be done with .
I asked why it didn't show up went I did a drop test , only explanation is , because it's intermission
Well at less I know it wasn't anything I did ,
He also think putting a new windless on may have finish the cable off in other words it was on the way out and the extra power the new windlass needed just finished it off .
I hoping I one step forward .
Once again thanks everyone .
I keep you posted
 
Hang on! Before you start ripping out and changing the 'defective' cable, would it not make more sense to rig up two short lengths of suitable cable so that you can verify that your problem would be solved?
I still don't understand how a break in the cable would melt the solenoid ; I would expect that the heat from the break would be localised in a section of the cable and not at its end. I am not an expert but I am trying to be logical.
 
PuffTheMagicDragon said:
Hang on! Before you start ripping out and changing the 'defective' cable, would it not make more sense to rig up two short lengths of suitable cable so that you can verify that your problem would be solved?
I still don't understand how a break in the cable would melt the solenoid ; I would expect that the heat from the break would be localised in a section of the cable and not at its end. I am not an expert but I am trying to be logical.
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I just spend the afternoon working a way of doing just that , , still trying to work how without going to too much expense . 13 mts boat , battery's one end windless the other and the trip in the middle .
 
sailaboutvic said:
I just spend the afternoon working a way of doing just that , , still trying to work how without going to too much expense . 13 mts boat , battery's one end windless the other and the trip in the middle .
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I've got some 20 foot jump leads on my boat to go between one engine and the other but even they might not be long enough. However, if you can borrow some sets of jump leads and clamp them together you might get enough length to firstly parallel the positive and test the windlass and then parallel the negative. Don't both to parallel both at the same time as probably only one is faulty and don't use the jump lead in place of the boat wiring as it might not be much better on it's own but will be good enough to supplement the existing cable and overcome any problem.

Richard
 
RichardS said:
I've got some 20 foot jump leads on my boat to go between one engine and the other but even they might not be long enough. However, if you can borrow some sets of jump leads and clamp them together you might get enough length to firstly parallel the positive and test the windlass and then parallel the negative. Don't both to parallel both at the same time as probably only one is faulty and don't use the jump lead in place of the boat wiring as it might not be much better on it's own but will be good enough to supplement the existing cable and overcome any problem.

Richard
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That's is what I had already set up I removed the two leads of my inverter , each set has two leads join together each cable is about 7 mm , joining them to gather it just about reach the breaker . but can't do much till the morning now .
. If that. Doesn't work I will try the Earth , the problem will be if that doesn't work too as no way I got anything on board to do both at the same tome .
Fingers cross as I just had enough of it now
 
sailaboutvic said:
That's is what I had already set up I removed the two leads of my inverter , each set has two leads join together each cable is about 7 mm , joining them to gather it just about reach the breaker . but can't do much till the morning now .
. If that. Doesn't work I will try the Earth , the problem will be if that doesn't work too as no way I got anything on board to do both at the same tome .
Fingers cross as I just had enough of it now
Click to expand...

Good luck tomorrow Vic.

Richard
 
If it is a cable break then the voltage will fall across the break.

So how to measure this ?

Get a long piece of 1.5mm2 wire direct onto the battery -VE well attached to the one test lead of the meter.

Measure the +VE at the battery with the engine running / alternator charging. This provides your reference level, e.g. 13.4 v.

Then measure the voltage along the +VE supply at each break point in the cable :- before / after MCCB, Solenoid, etc, taking the reading with the windlass off and then running.

Then reverse the long reference connection at the battery to +VE and then check each negative return break point.

This is a hefty motor pulling high current, so if there is a significant volts drop you should be able to find it. I would be concerned if between the battery and the motor any where is losing more than 1.5 volts.
 
I thought early on in this saga you mentioned that the cables were hot near the solenoid - but I might have imagined that.

If the cables are getting hot somewhere, to me the obvious place is at the swage (I actually find it difficult to understand how you can have break somewhere in the middle, unless you have a very sharp corner and the corner has been rubbing. The cabling you imply is old(ish) so my first and immediate thought are the swages. But first remind us - where did the various components get hot.

But I'd think if the fallback is replace the lot - I'd invest in one long new cable and use it to replace each of the cables in turn, I don't somehow think replacing a black cable with red cable will somehow be detected! If the cables are at fault (and assuming its only one) then this seems a cheaper first option - and if you replace the lot you are going to buy new cables anyway. If it turns out one of the short cables is at fault, from the solenoid - you just need to chop something off and have a new swage - so why not make a new cable the length you need + the length of the section from solenoid to motor and then you'll end up with a spare length the right size for the cable from battery to solenoid.

Hope that's clear,

Another option, if you have a moveable battery, access to a spare somehow - take it to the solenoid, use jump leads - they are cheap as chips if you need to buy - and try the solenoid/windlass with the battery at the bow - this tests, motor and solenoid - but does need the spare battery?? (engine start battery?)

Simply trying to think how you can bodge and test - cheaply. Its unclear what expertise you are replying on - I had thought you were going to badger the people you bought from.

Jonathan
 
superheat6k said:
If it is a cable break then the voltage will fall across the break.

So how to measure this ?

Get a long piece of 1.5mm2 wire direct onto the battery -VE well attached to the one test lead of the meter.

Measure the +VE at the battery with the engine running / alternator charging. This provides your reference level, e.g. 13.4 v.

Then measure the voltage along the +VE supply at each break point in the cable :- before / after MCCB, Solenoid, etc, taking the reading with the windlass off and then running.

Then reverse the long reference connection at the battery to +VE and then check each negative return break point.

This is a hefty motor pulling high current, so if there is a significant volts drop you should be able to find it. I would be concerned if between the battery and the motor any where is losing more than 1.5 volts.
Click to expand...
Thanks another option , I wish I knew this early .
What I manage to do last night was to remove my inverter leads which are about 25mm joined in pears so if you like two 25mm for the red and two for the black then I joined them end to end this will get me af far back as the breaker . It will also reach from the breaker to the battery's so I should be able to isolate if there a problem along that part . If it's not there then I some how got to find a way to doing the same to the earth now that will be the problem , that where your test will be very handy .
 
Neeves said:
I thought early on in this saga you mentioned that the cables were hot near the solenoid - but I might have imagined that.

If the cables are getting hot somewhere, to me the obvious place is at the swage (I actually find it difficult to understand how you can have break somewhere in the middle, unless you have a very sharp corner and the corner has been rubbing. The cabling you imply is old(ish) so my first and immediate thought are the swages. But first remind us - where did the various components get hot.

But I'd think if the fallback is replace the lot - I'd invest in one long new cable and use it to replace each of the cables in turn, I don't somehow think replacing a black cable with red cable will somehow be detected! If the cables are at fault (and assuming its only one) then this seems a cheaper first option - and if you replace the lot you are going to buy new cables anyway. If it turns out one of the short cables is at fault, from the solenoid - you just need to chop something off and have a new swage - so why not make a new cable the length you need + the length of the section from solenoid to motor and then you'll end up with a spare length the right size for the cable from battery to solenoid.

Hope that's clear,

Another option, if you have a moveable battery, access to a spare somehow - take it to the solenoid, use jump leads - they are cheap as chips if you need to buy - and try the solenoid/windlass with the battery at the bow - this tests, motor and solenoid - but does need the spare battery?? (engine start battery?)

Simply trying to think how you can bodge and test - cheaply. Its unclear what expertise you are replying on - I had thought you were going to badger the people you bought from.

Jonathan
Click to expand...
Jonathan
I was slowly working my way back to where I got it from , but now That the guy I had on yesterday have found the problem ( I hope ) there not much point as it seen it's not the windlass .

The soleniod got hot enough to melt , now is that because that's the weakes place being plastic casing and it's more noticeable there , in other works where the cables hot else where too .
The guy yesterday measured 85 at the start then it when up to 174A under load at the windless end .

I have already done the jump lead test but the way every thing is with such short leads from the windlass to the solenoid it almost impossible to get a good connect and the leads got hot .

I hoping what I got set up to day will do the trick ,

Where I was trying to get away with the cheapes option before , I about had enough with it now and if I have to replace all the cable I will , the really problem is getting to them without taken the boat apart then I not sure I still will , these cable where lay before the top and bottom was put together plus there have wire ties in place you can't get too .

Also I not in a position where I can just go and buy stuff , just to buy a bit of wire as suggested by superheatK5 ( very useful Info by the way , )
I would need to sail 20 plus miles from here or get a buses which could take me all day back and fro .or pull my 240v extension leads to bits .
to buy new cables I would need to get to town some 35 miles . So I need to make do with what I have , to find the problem .
this is what we have to do at times . When we live on a boat with no car and are in places with no shops at hand .

Life isn't easy when you cruising . It's not all beer and sunbathing .
I have to say the help I am getting here is great thanks guy ,
 
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Rubbish, its beer, sunbathing and BBQs - and being surrounded by your ladies you have so little time left over!


But seriously.

We know the issues of being aboard for long periods and no transport, we do have bikes - but they are not ideal for 35km journeys.

We are wondering what long cables and spare batteries you could move around to test - but not knowing what you have we can only simply throw ideas at you.

People who bundle all the cables together with cable ties and then feed them into conduits should be forcibly retired from the industry - how do they expect anyone to conduct any repairs is a mystery.

We are all keen to see you back and operating as normal and we are all keen to know what the issue might be as many of us have old cables, ours are 17 years old, so we want to know where weak spots might develop.

We are all wishing you well.

Jonathan
 
Just with a little help from our friends as the song goes .
Another day trouble sorting out the problem , with the lone of some very big leads 50mm that a 1/4 more then is spec we manage to run them from the battery bank to the solenoid , I connected the breaker with a short cable 20cm to the solenoid took the new earth lead and connect it straight onto the the earth of the windlass , then conected the pos lead on to the breaker ,
NOW I have isolated all the cables and wires on the boat , guess what , the trip tripped .
Re place the trip with a new 125A and the trip tripped . I just wondering if the Cayman just isn't man enough for our boat .
Ok I have to say we are putting it under pressure to test it out , in other works we making it pull the boat forwards , but I would had tho the windlass should be able to take take , in the pass I have pulled up two other anchors which have been laid over mine without any problem with my 1000w quick windlass .
Test ,
I weight around 75kg it can't lift me to the first cross tree before it trips .
There spec talks about 650 kg max lifting load and a max working load of 165kg that's well over twice my weight .
I still can't understand how we getting 135/185A when the chain is tied and it pulling to boat forward in a flat clam weather with no wind . In the pass I used windlass to pull others of a mud bank .
Am I asking too much ? Even so why are these Ampsage so hight .
I know people are now thinking the fault with the windlass , I started to think it just not man enough and we asking to much of it , still can't understand the Ampages , again there spec say 117 working load , to me that's saying at 165kg it use 117amps , am I right ? But if it's tripping lifting me at 75 kg it mean it reaching the 135 to the 185 range for it to trip the breaker .
 
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I can't believe that a 1000W windlass is not powerful enough. I recall that yours has even tripped when just hauling up 10mm chain and that is a trivial load.

When I only had 50m of 10mm chain I had the whole lot out with a 25kg anchor attached in 100m of water just to straighten out any twists and that must weigh well over 100kg in water and the Quick did not trip.

I can envisage how a motor might have some shorted windings inside it which would presumably increase its current draw and make the motor less powerful ..... but I would expect that a lot of heat would be developed within the motor itself. I can't think of any simple way to test this other by by stripping the motor and measuring the coil resistances, assuming that Lofrans will tell you the correct resistance. The only other way would be to find someone else with the same windlass and run their motor for a timed period and feel how hot it is (or use an IR heat gun) and then run yours for the same time and see how hot yours gets.

The absolute best test would be to swap out your windlass for an identical one and see if that one trips out. However, that is obviously not a simple task even if you can find someone willing to do the swap. I'd be happy to swap mine out to help someone with an identical Quick windlass but mine is mounted on top of the deck and I can unbolt it and lift it out in 5 minutes.

Richard
 
12v at 100amps equates to 1200 watts. 1200 watts will lift 1200/9.8 kg up by one meter per sec, or 1200x60/(9.8x16) kg up 16m per min at the Lofrans Cayman 88 quoted speed; which amounts to about 459 kg. Allowing for losses of say 50%, that windlass should be lifting maybe 230kg when it's drawing 100amps. That's about 115m of 10mm chain.

But reading the thread, the windlass trips when lifting far less. Thus a lot of watts are disappearing somewhere I reckon, presumably as heat. If the windlass is properly wired, then it must be getting very hot.

My experience suggests a windlass only draws the amps it needs to meet the load. With little load it doesn't heat up or run very fast, it just uses less amps and watts.

So I reckon it's shorting somewhere, in the windlass or in the wiring or controls. If the wiring has been checked, I'd back the OP's hunch that the windlass motor is faulty. Additionally, I'm mindful that this sale was some sort of deal. It was sold open box: why I wonder? OK it was surplus to requirements, but why then was the box opened? Maybe it had been fitted and found wanting. Maybe the motor was swopped, or a component removed, and it was re-assembled wrongly?

I think the secret is to find where all that energy is going ie where is it getting hot?
 
RichardS said:
I can't believe that a 1000W windlass is not powerful enough. I recall that yours has even tripped when just hauling up 10mm chain and that is a trivial load.

When I only had 50m of 10mm chain I had the whole lot out with a 25kg anchor attached in 100m of water just to straighten out any twists and that must weigh well over 100kg in water and the Quick did not trip.

I can envisage how a motor might have some shorted windings inside it which would presumably increase its current draw and make the motor less powerful ..... but I would expect that a lot of heat would be developed within the motor itself. I can't think of any simple way to test this other by by stripping the motor and measuring the coil resistances, assuming that Lofrans will tell you the correct resistance. The only other way would be to find someone else with the same windlass and run their motor for a timed period and feel how hot it is (or use an IR heat gun) and then run yours for the same time and see how hot yours gets.

The absolute best test would be to swap out your windlass for an identical one and see if that one trips out. However, that is obviously not a simple task even if you can find someone willing to do the swap. I'd be happy to swap mine out to help someone with an identical Quick windlass but mine is mounted on top of the deck and I can unbolt it and lift it out in 5 minutes.

Richard
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I don't know what to say Richard , I am totally lost now I can't believe it can't pull a boat a little forward without tripping or as it seen Amps rising that high ,
I trying to get another company out to take a look Lofrans had given me a company in Greece who in turn has put me onto another company , but as I am sure you know very well trying to get any one out to do a job can be very hard , and getting someone who knows his job is even harder , proved by the last guy who was British and said he British registered, then tell me it's a wiring fault , I could had rip the boat a part just to get the wire out all for nothing ,
as proved it's nothing to do with the wiring on the boat ,
The way I wired it up straight to the battery with different leads , the problem can only start from the breaker,( which now is not only new but I gone from 105A to 125A) soleniod , ( which is also new ) wiring to the windlass , which is build into the windlass , the greabox or the motor ,
unless as I said the windlass just isn't man enough .

In one way it's a relief it's not anything I done wrong although I known this all a long on the other hand I wish I had at less I can get to the bottom of the problem .
Lofrans and there UK dealer are basic saying it not there product and basic in not so many words saying it some thing I done wrong .
What I need now is in writing is a conformation that some thing wrong with the motor , it's the only way forward , or being told that all that windlass will do in which case I just have to lump it .

To morrow I am in Lefkas where the company in Athens have seek out another guy to take a look , now the problem going to be if he try's to tell me it's the wiring on the boat or the breaker or some thing else but not the windlass . Because I am 100% sure now it can't be anything to do with the boat .
Or do any one here disagree .
 
Vic,
I have one of these windlasses and can pull 100m of chain & a 30kg Anchor without tripping or overheating. Am I correct in believing that whilst doing all these tests etc that at no point have you unmounted the windlass. The reason I ask is if I recall correctly is that the wiring enters the windlass from below. Could the wiring have been trapped and / or damaged during installation resulting and a short each time you turn it on. Hence overloading, tripping breaker or overheating relay. A thought worth checking.
 
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