Lofrans cayman 88

Neeves said:
I might question who you bought from

This is 30 years ago - We had a new yacht and a little later had a problem with the folding prop. Cannot recall what it was now. I contacted the Gori, who asked for the prop number, which I gave them. They replied and said it was not unexpected, whatever the problem was, as the prop was 6 years old, the yacht was newish - the dealer, selling us the yacht had swapped the prop on their yacht for the new one on mine.


Our little windlass is an RC8/6. 1,000 watt motor with maxim lift of 600kg and a retrieval speed of 32m/min - its incredibly fast. Our chain is 6mm 0.8/m and anchor 8kg.

I know its not easy - on ours downright difficult - but you have a manual lift using a standard winch handle?

If you have a gearbox issue I'd expect the gearbox to be at least warm.

Have you thought of running the motor disconnected from the gear box? though not sure what it would tell you. and/or using the winch handle to manually lift - see if its unnecessarily hard (so something wrong with the shaft or gearbox).

Jonathan
Click to expand...
We have used the handle and it seems to work ok , so I guess there no problem there ,
I just done what paul suggested , run the windlass without the chain it's not blown the trip after two mins but the motor started to get hot through the casing .
Add weight to that and I wonder if that heat would be a lot more .
 
sailaboutvic said:
We have used the handle and it seems to work ok , so I guess there no problem there ,
I just done what paul suggested , run the windlass without the chain it's not blown the trip after two mins but the motor started to get hot through the casing .
Add weight to that and I wonder if that heat would be a lot more .
Click to expand...

I'd expect the motor to get warm after a couple of minutes, but not hot.

Note that the Lofrans cable recommendations relate to the negative and positive cables added together. So if your cable run from battery to windlass is 12m, you are at the very upper limit for 35mm cable.

I'm not sure whether i'd suggest the motor is at fault or it's the cabling. I'm also mindful of your cruising situation. I can only think of two suggestions, either take the motor off and get it back to Lofrans for testing or get a couple of short cables made up and properly connect a battery at the bow. If the battery at the bow cured the problem you could leave it there and connect the existing cables to the battery to keep it charged, you would need additional breakers to protect the wiring. If it doesn't work you know for sure it's the windlass at fault.
 
I'd agree but add,

I don't know where you are getting all the batteries from but:

Drive the windlass from a battery at the bow using decent cables, connect that battery to the existing cables, so that when you run the windlass you keep charge up and then test with the engine running. This way you are maximising the power you offer to the windlass. Apart from time your investment is 2 short heavy duty cables, which if it works you might want when you relocate a battery up there. I think your cable run quite long and I might consider relocating battery there anyway.

But it does not sound like the windlass but the motor and I would have thought Lofrans would not want the whole thing back. I was told everyone (the windlass makers) were all using Cima motors (which surprised me as I thought they would all have come from China).

Good luck.

Jonathan
 
First guys , thanks for all the help and suggestion .
Paul re cables , I don't know enough to agree or disagree with you , Lofrans spec say, 15/25 M 35mm2 , I dought if my run is 12 mts so I would had said I am well in there limits .
A quick measure in a stright line 8.5 mts , I take it there will be a bit of a bend some where so you have to add a bit more .

The problem with putting a battery up front is I would be over riding the breaker so just as a test I have no way of telling if the breaker would had tripped or not so I no better off and as you say there be some heat from the cables so by feeling the solenoid I be no wiser .
What I really need to do is have the motor tested , on the other hand I just as well to sail back to where I got it from and see if they sort it out .
It already cost an extra 180 Euro changing part that didn't need changing , and if that did the job it wouldn't had bother me but I could change all the cables and still be no better off .
I guess 24 mts of 50mm2 would be an arm and leg job that's without ripping the inside to bits to locate them just to find that won't make any different .
Again thanks guys I will report back once the problem sorted , I might be red faced about it , on the other hand I started to feel it's the motor .
 
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If you are happy to sail back then one option when you arrive is simply to swap your motor for one of theirs - I think you said, or implied, they had many all the same - ensure that theirs works first of all. Unless you have a strange installation it should be easy.

I hope its not far. Retrieving by hand is not a bundle of laughs.

Jonathan

Good Luck, fair winds
 
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duncan99210 said:
8mm chain and 20 Kg Rocna.
Click to expand...

Thanks Duncan , I spoke to peachman again this morning and he agree 10 mm and a 25kg anchor is nothing for that size windlass , he also agree that I done everything I can and he too now thinks it the motor ,
We talked cables and he said the cable are plenty big enough for that run even if we went to the max limits .
As long as there no bad connection ( which I done a drop test and it show it's fine ) then he can only suggest it has to be something to do with the motor .
So we back to where we got it from to morrow .
Talk about had enough I wish I kept my old one now . :)
 
The rated current value (Ampères) of the motor at rated load should be reported on the name plate of the motor or available by Lofrans.
If the current is within this value an excessive warm up or fault should not be experienced at any point of the circuit. The problem is getting an Ammeter with a big enough range.

A car electrician at his workshop can check and test the motor, and eventually repair it. And could lend the Ammeter.
I would carry also the solenoid.
Might be nearer than where you bought the windlass.

Sandro
 
Your problem sounds similar to the one I had with my Kobra, difference being mine had already put in 10 good summers in the Med.

I'm prepared to be shot down in flames, but I concluded that the rotor had swollen (cause unknown, overloading, overheating, internal corrosion), because while it would spin freely on the bench once under load it chaffed against the stator plates and eventually tripped the breaker. I tried turning down the rotor dia a tad and then ground some material off the stator plates. All good quality shed time but ultimately to no avail as the problem kept recurring. Worked fine in the garden dragging my 30m of 3/8 across the lawn and back, but after a month or so of regular hauling it was out with the gloves and back support again.

Initially I put it down to excessive corrosion (the Kobra motor hangs exposed in the anchor well) but that may have been a red herring. Problem solved by a new motor so maybe your best bet is beg/borrow a known good one to try. Got any buddies nearby with the same unit that might fancy an afternoons tinkering in exchange for .......

For info, and not knowing what comeback you have on the charter company or Lofrans due to the nature of your purchase, I found the best price/service for a new motor to be svb.de though I also had contact with an Italian outfit kelvin.it (At the time Lofrans as a company were in limbo).

Steve
 
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Am I being given the run around ?
Update .
I guy who we met had offered to take a look at the problem . He put his clips over current meter to see what current we had
With out any load just picking up chain , 85amps right through the cabling .
Once the load goes on and the chain tighten up it jumps to 130 Amps then it trips .
We know the breaker work ok as at the breaker it trips at just over 105 Amps ? Which is what you would expect .
This is what Lofrans spec say we need 105 Amp breaker .

Now Lofrans are saying that these amps are normal for a 1000w motor . And under load they will go up ,
FISRT POINT .
So why do they suggest 105 breaker , surely once the current start to go up to 130 Amps plus as the windlass takes the stain the breaker going to trip every time .

Next I ask well under full load 650kg what type of current am I expect to see , ?
Answer it depend on a lot of things .
Surely they must have an idea , there the tec guys after all
They did agree that the cable that when tho the boat would be big enough to take the current , I not sure if I can believe what they said if they can't tell me the max of current to expect .

An suggest was first made that the breaker may be tripping before it reach its 105amps , ( I know who it doesn't ) until I pointed out that we had a solenoid melt so I dough if that's the case , now it's being suggested to put on an 140 Amp breaker , so it doesn't trip so early ,
which seen to me is a bit stupid , if the 105 amp breaker didn't save the solenoid what going to happen with an 140 Amp .

As I said in my first posting , I am not that great with when it comes to power , but nothing seen to be adding up , 1000w @ 12v I would expect at full power to see around 83 Amps working they way though the cables .

Please someone put me right ,
I still hoping it something I done some thing silly , but considering the boat had an 1000w windlass which worked find with no change to cabling breakers or any thing else and All i did is wired the new windlass to the same cabling I would expect it all to work , the only other thing I done was put three terminals on the end of the leads , I checked and checked again and they seen fine .

Now I going to have to pay to get someone out to find the problem , but already I getting worried , a quick conversation on the phone he suggested a bigger breaker .
 
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I agree with you Vic, a bigger breaker is going to stop the the breaker tripping but just lead to more melting of the solenoid and cables.

If anything the voltage will be above 12V if you have the engine running so the current will be below 83 amps so 130 amps is too high for a 1000W windlass.

When I replaced my solenoid I had to buy the right type as some windlasses use a different system to reverse the motors (two cables rather than three if I recall) and need a different configuration of solenoid which reverses the current. Is there any chance that you been supplied with the wrong type of solenoid and the connections are therefore not right? It sounds ridiculous and grasping at straws but something doesn't sound right. :(

Richard
 
RichardS said:
I agree with you Vic, a bigger breaker is going to stop the the breaker tripping but just lead to more melting of the solenoid and cables.

If anything the voltage will be above 12V if you have the engine running so the current will be below 83 amps so 130 amps is too high for a 1000W windlass.

When I replaced my solenoid I had to buy the right type as some windlasses use a different system to reverse the motors (two cables rather than three if I recall) and need a different configuration of solenoid which reverses the current. Is there any chance that you been supplied with the wrong type of solenoid and the connections are therefore not right? It sounds ridiculous and grasping at straws but something doesn't sound right. :(

Richard
Click to expand...

I'm grasping at straws too now .
The solenoid is an Lofrans one same that came with the windlass .
I am so cross with Lofrans I was supposed to be talking to the head tec guy in Italy , so I really feel he fogging me off telling me it's normal for a motor to go to 135 Amps , he suggest it would go highter with more load on . I tho it was bull , once I asked him what would be the max Amps and he just said it depend on a lot of things .

I think I may have another guy who British and is Reg with the bristish Marine and he agree not to put a bigger breaker on unless I want a fire ,
It's wearing me down , normally I get to the bottom of problem even stuff I don't know much about .
Possibly I be red face in the end of the day , but as long as it get sorted that's fine .
By the way it's is to wire up , three wires one to each end of the solenoid , up and down and a Earth that goes on to the battery , oh the fourth wire the hot (red) goes on the middle of the three leads on the solenoid , a monkey can so it , arrr that could be the problem , I not a monkey .
First time in 15 years someone coming on board to d work to on my boat. This be interesting .
 
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Your currents are way out of line. We have the same Cayman 88 windlass with a 100 amp circuit breaker that has never tripped with 10mm chain and 20kg anchor. Also have the Lofrans solenoid that has not failed, melted or whatever. It can surely only be a faulty motor ...
 
Hoolie said:
Your currents are way out of line. We have the same Cayman 88 windlass with a 100 amp circuit breaker that has never tripped with 10mm chain and 20kg anchor. Also have the Lofrans solenoid that has not failed, melted or whatever. It can surely only be a faulty motor ...
Click to expand...
I would love to agree with you , but some how I am not 100% sure , maybe to morrow I know more
 
sailaboutvic said:
By the way it's is to wire up , three wires one to each end of the solenoid , up and down and a Earth that goes on to the battery , oh the fourth wire the hot (red) goes on the middle of the three leads on the solenoid , a monkey can so it , arrr that could be the problem , I not a monkey .
First time in 15 years someone coming on board to d work to on my boat. This be interesting .
Click to expand...

I've remembered the details now, I think. My windlass motor has 3 heavy cables attached to it, one negative and two positives and needs a non-reversing solenoid. Some windlasses have only a negative and a positive connection on the motor and those types need a reversing solenoid. I don't think it is possible to connect the wrong type of solenoid as there would be the wrong number of terminals so that pretty much rules that out I think.

Richard
 
RichardS said:
I've remembered the details now, I think. My windlass motor has 3 heavy cables attached to it, one negative and two positives and needs a non-reversing solenoid. Some windlasses have only a negative and a positive connection on the motor and those types need a reversing solenoid. I don't think it is possible to connect the wrong type of solenoid as there would be the wrong number of terminals so that pretty much rules that out I think.

Richard
Click to expand...
My own lofrans is only connected for up, not down, but is a 3 wire motor. I recently replaced the bearings and brushes and when I tested it open shaft on the bench the amps up were much higher than amps down. The amps up was the +VE cable that was being used.

BTW if ever you do need to replace brushes I found some car starter brushes for about £10 that I filed to fit the brush holders, which was slightly better value than Lofrans original.

It is important that the wires are all correctly connected, so have you checked this.
 
Not really relevant,

I've just looked up the Maxwell specs (as that's what I have, only smaller chain) and for a 1,000 watt motor 10mm chain they are suggesting a 135 amp breaker. They also seem to imply the maximum working load, kgs,is half the rated load, which I don't understand (and the static load is about twice the rated load - presumably max load when at anchor). But I would agree if its over heating and melting at 100 amps, before the 105 amp breaker trips, then its going to really smoke at 130 amps, before 135 amp breaker trips.

Based purely on ignorance I would have thought if there were a problem with the motor - it would over heat. The tests on the motor actually suggest is works all right - though maybe I interpret incorrectly. The melting and overheating are described round the solenoid. So I'm wondering about the wiring at the solenoid and the solenoid itself. So is everything wired the right way round is the solenoid at fault.

I'm sure we suggested this, the solenoid is just a switch, use the breaker as the switch, wire the motor, correctly and directly to the power - does it run, does it get hot (worryingly). If you are near the people who sold it - who seemed to order the windlass in bulk. Can you borrow a motor and a solenoid - both of which work and swap with yours - you then know (hopefully) where the fault is - unless its your wiring.

Much of this depends on getting some cooperation from those who sold to you.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Not really relevant,

I've just looked up the Maxwell specs (as that's what I have, only smaller chain) and for a 1,000 watt motor 10mm chain they are suggesting a 135 amp breaker. They also seem to imply the maximum working load, kgs,is half the rated load, which I don't understand (and the static load is about twice the rated load - presumably max load when at anchor). But I would agree if its over heating and melting at 100 amps, before the 105 amp breaker trips, then its going to really smoke at 130 amps, before 135 amp breaker trips.

Based purely on ignorance I would have thought if there were a problem with the motor - it would over heat. The tests on the motor actually suggest is works all right - though maybe I interpret incorrectly. The melting and overheating are described round the solenoid. So I'm wondering about the wiring at the solenoid and the solenoid itself. So is everything wired the right way round is the solenoid at fault.

I'm sure we suggested this, the solenoid is just a switch, use the breaker as the switch, wire the motor, correctly and directly to the power - does it run, does it get hot (worryingly). If you are near the people who sold it - who seemed to order the windlass in bulk. Can you borrow a motor and a solenoid - both of which work and swap with yours - you then know (hopefully) where the fault is - unless its your wiring.

Much of this depends on getting some cooperation from those who sold to you.

Jonathan
Click to expand...
Long posting sorry guys .
Hi Jonathan
If I go back to the begin , once I remover my old windlass I was left with two wire pos and Neg , that ends up back to the battery's all stright forward .
The windlasss has three leads up, down and the earth marked black and grey , also stright forward .
The soleniod had six connection , three large on top , the middle one is the pos (red ) the two ether end is for the up /down from the motor , ( grey leads ) the black lead from the motor goes on to the earth lead from the battery's , all straight forwards .
The three small connections on the side of the soleniod go to thehand control , the worst that would happen is if you wired it up wrong is the up button would make the windlass goes down or the other way round . So nothing wrong there .
Although I said in my first posting I am not that great on electrics,, I may given the impression I know nothing ) I meant on problem finding .
I have wired stuff up for years without problems for years . Even wired up a whole house once .
Correct me if I am wrong , I expect current use by any motor is worked out by the size of the motor / by what's volt working it , in this cast 12v . Am I right or is there more to it ?

In which case 1000/12 is 83 Amps , if that's the case ,

so what would make it go up to 135apms under load is the question .

For sure it's none of the wiring up above . ( if earth connection to pos there be sparks flying every where , if the pos or Neg wasn't connection nothing would happen , if the hand control wires where wrong then it go around the wrong way or not work ) so I can't see it any thing I done .
It leaves the boat wiring or the motor , the boat wiring run a 1000w motor as we all know so I would expect it to run this one , so one would have to think that's fine .
Leave the motor or soleniod , new soleniod now so it can't be that . Leave the motor . Mmmm .
I Remove the cover off the motor the label on the motor say 12v 1000w .so we know it's a 12 v motor unless the label wrong .
In one way I cant believe it's the motor and it's some thing that's happen between the time I unblots one windlass and bolted the other , on the other hand it points to the motor .

I had also remover the soleniod and used the breaker as a switch , and it trips as before .

So guys back to the question , what would make a motor go from 83 Amps with no load just to 130 Amps as it hit load .?
Answer on a paper in black ink and no more then 1000 words :)

I hoping the guy that's coming out to day will find the problem and prove that I did something stupid , although I not at all sure he will .
But al less his the first guy I spoken to who's not made stupid suggestion like putting on a bigger breaker .
 
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I've just looked at the manual for my Quick 1000W windlass Vic, but I don't think it will cheer you up very much.

My Quick says:

1000W
12V
Current absorption at working load: 140A
Protection circuit breaker: 80A
Motor cable size: 35 sq mm / AWG2

I've no idea what "absorption" means but I guess it's just a poor translation from Italian and just means "drawn" or perhaps "maximum".

Either way, it appears that 140A is not extreme and even though my breaker is only 80A and I'm pulling 100 metres of 10mm chain and a 25kg anchor it has never tripped, although I am using a 1500W solenoid.

Your problem is very strange. :(

Richard
 
RichardS said:
I've just looked at the manual for my Quick 1000W windlass Vic, but I don't think it will cheer you up very much.

My Quick says:

1000W
12V
Current absorption at working load: 140A
Protection circuit breaker: 80A
Motor cable size: 35 sq mm / AWG2

I've no idea what "absorption" means but I guess it's just a poor translation from Italian and just means "drawn" or perhaps "maximum".

Either way, it appears that 140A is not extreme and even though my breaker is only 80A and I'm pulling 100 metres of 10mm chain and a 25kg anchor it has never tripped, although I am using a 1500W solenoid.

Your problem is very strange. :(

Richard
Click to expand...
Take a look here
It's an Cayman 88 12 v 1000 w

Says working load 117 a
http://www.lofrans.com/ajax/download.FILE.php?documents[]=3
 
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