Lofrans cayman 88

sailaboutvic said:
It's a new solenoid , that came with the windlass , I did try and use the old solenoid but for some reason it turned the windlass over very slowly , not sure why , in the end of the day it's just a switch and it worked very well with the old S&L windlass .
I have brought a new solenoid but I don't want to fit it and burn out another solenoid ,
As the problem have been happening since I first fitted the new windlass I do wonder if I got an Friday night windlass .
Click to expand...

So try the windlass without the solenoid. If you have any spare cabling (and if it were me - I don't) replace the existing cabling with other cabling and try that. You have very few components, motor, cables and solenoid. Test each in turn, in the absence of the others. As you say the solenoid is just a switch, use the circuit breaker as the switch and try that - if you still have issues it sounds like a Friday/Monday motor (which should still be under warranty). The motors all come from Italy and are made in their millions (there must be lots made on a Friday or Monday!

We did have a problem with our Maxwell, loose connection at the solenoid (and as I made the connection it was my fault :( ! )

Jonathan
 
Is the current required by the weight of anchor+chain within the rated current of the motor? It should be read in a nameplate on the motor.
I aknowledge that an ammeter of this range is not in everyone tool box, but a suitable shunt resistor can be bought or borrowed.

Sandro
 
Neeves said:
So try the windlass without the solenoid. If you have any spare cabling (and if it were me - I don't) replace the existing cabling with other cabling and try that. You have very few components, motor, cables and solenoid. Test each in turn, in the absence of the others. As you say the solenoid is just a switch, use the circuit breaker as the switch and try that - if you still have issues it sounds like a Friday/Monday motor (which should still be under warranty). The motors all come from Italy and are made in their millions (there must be lots made on a Friday or Monday!

We did have a problem with our Maxwell, loose connection at the solenoid (and as I made the connection it was my fault :( ! )

Jonathan
Click to expand...
Ok I did has you suggested , without the solenoid the breaker still trip . Which don't leave much now . really , voltage drop ok , 12mm cables ,
it looking like more and more the motor .
 
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Sandro said:
Is the current required by the weight of anchor+chain within the rated current of the motor? It should be read in a nameplate on the motor.
I aknowledge that an ammeter of this range is not in everyone tool box, but a suitable shunt resistor can be bought or borrowed.

Sandro
Click to expand...
Their spec , max linear pull 1300kg max lift load 650kg
If I was pulling up 15 mts of 10mm chain 2.5 kg a mts plus 25 kg anchor , that only around 63 kg , so well in their spec
Plus the trip going well before I getting to the anchor , so it only chain weight.
I very confuse now .
 
This one seems to have us stumped Vic. :(

I had a thought that if you remove the electric motor so that you can turn it by hand you could connect an ohm meter across the -ve and +ve terminals and then turn the shaft slowly you might see the meter going open circuit as the brushes contact the the next segment on the commutator and then registering a resistance as the coil comes into circuit and then dropping to open circuit etc etc in a smooth repeating pattern as the shaft rotates.

If something odd happens at some point, like the resistance dropping to zero ohms, then that might suggest a short circuit problem on one coil which would draw a large current for a fraction of a second every rotation.

I don't know whether this would be a likely finding but any repeating anomaly during each rotation would suggest that something is amiss.

Richard
 
Depending on the type of cable and the length, 12mm od might be a bit borderline. But, it does sound a bit like the windlass is faulty. I have a Caymans 88 and it's been hauling a lot of 8mm chain and a 35lb CQR for years, although i've now changed to a lighter Delta.

Try lifting the chain from the gypsy and running it, how long before it trips ? Can you expose the cable core and measure it ? How long is the cable run ?
 
PaulRainbow said:
Depending on the type of cable and the length, 12mm od might be a bit borderline. But, it does sound a bit like the windlass is faulty. I have a Caymans 88 and it's been hauling a lot of 8mm chain and a 35lb CQR for years, although i've now changed to a lighter Delta.

Try lifting the chain from the gypsy and running it, how long before it trips ? Can you expose the cable core and measure it ? How long is the cable run ?
Click to expand...

Hi Paul
Do you really think 12mm cables are boarded line , I would had tho they big enough , but then I no expect that's why I asking the question here .
The set up for on the boat was working an old S&l 1000 w windlass on an 8 mm chain an 20 kg anchor all worked find without any problem ,
it has now got to deal with 10 mm chain and an 25 kg anchor ,but still an 1000w motor .
but before anyone gets excited , Lofrans spec for a Cayman 88 state , lifting load of 650 kg , correct me if I wrong , I understand that to say it will lift 650kg .
Most of the time when it's tripping , we only lifting up chain for 10 mts depth , so we now only talking 25 kg , even if you add the anchor on that we still only talking 50 kg , that nothing compare what their spec says .
Again please correct me if I wrong .
The drop test show .75 on each cable ,
The solenoid has been changed , as the new one melted .
Putting a battery up front and running jumps leads , ok cheap leads , the leads got very hot within a min of running the windlass . That in it self as remove the possibility that the cables in the boat could be a problem , and he trip .
Still feel it could be the motor , even tho it's only a few weeks old . You have to remember this all started from day one .
Again if I said any thing that not right please correct me .its the only way I find the problem .
One last thing we had a quick 1000w windlass on the other boat with 10 mm chain and 20kg anchor and for 9 month of each year for 7 years that worked most days .
 
It may well be the motor.

When you refer to your cable as being 12mm, that doesn't tell what it is really, it's going to depend on how thick the insulation is. If it has thick insulation it could be 35mm and if it's a long way from the batteries to the windlass that'll be borderline. Heavier chain, heavier anchor and possibly a faster windlass could add up to it being too much for the wiring.

Skinny jump leads will often melt before they start a car, so don't hold to much store in that test Vic.

Do see what happens if you run the windlass without the chain on the gypsy.
 
This has been happening since day one

If it had been me I'd have been on to the manufacturer and distributor like a plague of locusts and I would not have been buying a new soleniod - but demanding attention.

Why has this not been part of your programme, what's stopping you.

What are the cable sizes specified for the new motor. I mentioned before new windlass run, retrieve, exceptionally quickly - compared to older ones (even though they are lifting the same weight). This must mean they draw more power - the old cables might have been adequate for a low speed windlass but not a higher speed windlass.

We don't have all the story yet
 
Neeves said:
This has been happening since day one

If it had been me I'd have been on to the manufacturer and distributor like a plague of locusts and I would not have been buying a new soleniod - but demanding attention.

Why has this not been part of your programme, what's stopping you.

What are the cable sizes specified for the new motor. I mentioned before new windlass run, retrieve, exceptionally quickly - compared to older ones (even though they are lifting the same weight). This must mean they draw more power - the old cables might have been adequate for a low speed windlass but not a higher speed windlass.

We don't have all the story yet
Click to expand...

Full story .
I brought it from an charter company as they had a spare one , still in a box new . So it not a matter of just taken it back to the shop .
I did report the problems a few days later but by that time we left the area .
Just like them I through it can't be the motor it has to be something else .
It took a while to buy a new breaker as that was the first thing suggested .
When this didn't work Lofrans suggested a drop test which which I did did .
It took time a few days to get answers back from them .
Next suggestion we to take a battery up front , and see what happen agree jump leads would get hot but these when soft very quickly .

cables , lofrans spec .
for up to 15 to 25 mts run 35mm2 what I google is 35 mm2 iner core is 7 mm out core casing 12 mm that's the same as I have .
The cables run cant be more the 12 mts in all . So that we'll within their limits .

There is a small run under a mts with three small cables which are build into the windlass these cables are small , too small for my likings but you would expect them to be big enough as Lofrans installed them . If they was bolted on I would had replace them .

In the mean time I did stuff that was suggested by people on here .
There you go full story .
Jonathan you have to remember we cruising , if I was in one place with a car I would had taken it off and took it back .
I will try and run the windlass with out chain to day , but surely a windlass without any pull at all would generate less current unlike a loaded one so any fault wouldn't heat up the cables as much as a loaded windlass .
Also the only place I can find any thing getting hot is at the cable at the solenoid , else where I can feel any heat by hand .
 
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PaulRainbow said:
It may well be the motor.

When you refer to your cable as being 12mm, that doesn't tell what it is really, it's going to depend on how thick the insulation is. If it has thick insulation it could be 35mm and if it's a long way from the batteries to the windlass that'll be borderline. Heavier chain, heavier anchor and possibly a faster windlass could add up to it being too much for the wiring.

Skinny jump leads will often melt before they start a car, so don't hold to much store in that test Vic.

Do see what happens if you run the windlass without the chain on the gypsy.
Click to expand...

Paul I try that to day , but I not sure that will tell me any thing ? ,
more heat is generated under load , you can run a drill for ever and it won't get hot a drill being used under load will get hot after a short while .
I like to be 100% certain before taken it all off again , not a five min job , plus it an heavy thing to carry on the bus .
 
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Vic, if the winch runs cool without a load, it suggests that the cable size is too small for the load. If it runs hot without a load, it points to a fault in the winch, hence the suggestion to try it without a load. On cable size, I've just measured the external diameter of my cables (supplying a Cayman) and they're 10.7mm diameter (measured over the insulation) and I've never had any problems with them. The cable run from the solenoids is in the region of 10 metres. Hope that helps.
 
duncan99210 said:
Vic, if the winch runs cool without a load, it suggests that the cable size is too small for the load. If it runs hot without a load, it points to a fault in the winch, hence the suggestion to try it without a load. On cable size, I've just measured the external diameter of my cables (supplying a Cayman) and they're 10.7mm diameter (measured over the insulation) and I've never had any problems with them. The cable run from the solenoids is in the region of 10 metres. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...

Hi Duncan mine are 12 mm , so a lot bigger .
What chain have you and size anchor , although that really don't make a big different as there spec say 650 kg lifting load .
Even peachman inthe uk said that load is nothing for a Cayman
 
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Vic,

I do sympathise.

I too had a problem with my new Maxwell, I too was cruising (well actually commuting from near Brisbane back to Sydney). Basically my windlass would retrieve but not drop and I was seriously concerned in case it became worse and would not retrieve as I must anchor (there are few marinas and no guarantee they would take a 22' wide cat). I had limited (and expensive) internet access which added to concerns. I contacted Maxwell describing the issue and I tried all they suggested - this was all made more complicated as I was making the checks in the dark as I was sailing with weather windows and never had any daylight to work in. Maxwell sent a complete installation procedure to me, went through a series of checks but their final comment was - if we (Maxwell and I together) could not fix the fault they would send me a completely new windlass, to my next destination or port of call, free of charge and freight free (I could return the old one, I've had it for 18 months, at my leisure).

In the event it was my fault as one of the power leads to the solenoid was loose, I simply tightened it up and hey presto it all worked, faultlessly. Really simple, my panic over. Entirely my fault as I installed.

This is not quite your situation. I bought my windlass direct from Maxwell, we had discussed my special requirements, bigger motor, unusual chain specification - but the immediate offer of a new windlass provided me with the comfort that I had a very safe fall back and I would not need to retrieve by hand, or not for too long.

This is Maxwell, Brisbane, Australia - its the sort of service I expect (though sometimes it takes a bit of argument/negotiation). It might not be the same service from Vetus (who own Maxwell) in, say, the UK. I have the same service from Navico (B&G) and Volvo - which is why I expect it as the norm.

The only additional comment I would make is that, to me, its a very long cable run. We run our windlass, admittedly 6mm, off the house bank (and would always have the engine, or both engines, running,) and our cable run is 2m - easy on a cat as the batteries are in the saloon immediately aft of the mast and the windlass is aft of the bridgedeck immediately in front of the mast. I cannot measure our cables, they are hefty look at least 10/12mm but I'm convalescing at home - banned (grounds for divorce) from lifting (so cannot move the dinghy). We had major problems with our previous windlass from Muir, the solenoid kept sticking and like you I bought another, which also stuck. In the end I'd run one until it stuck too frequently swap round clean up the pins of the one I'd taken off and repeat. I was not impressed with Muir, so I don't get good service all the time - but part of the reason to buy the new windlass from Maxwell.

But you don't need to carry the whole thing, on the bus. You only need carry the motor which should disengage from the gearbox with 4 nuts/bolts and undo 2 or 3 cables and then pull off the solenoid. You should be able to get the motor off without touching anything else - though access might not be good - but you put it on so you should know how to get it off. Unless you think there is something wrong with the gearbox?

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Vic,

I do sympathise.

I too had a problem with my new Maxwell, I too was cruising (well actually commuting from near Brisbane back to Sydney). Basically my windlass would retrieve but not drop and I was seriously concerned in case it became worse and would not retrieve as I must anchor (there are few marinas and no guarantee they would take a 22' wide cat). I had limited (and expensive) internet access which added to concerns. I contacted Maxwell describing the issue and I tried all they suggested - this was all made more complicated as I was making the checks in the dark as I was sailing with weather windows and never had any daylight to work in. Maxwell sent a complete installation procedure to me, went through a series of checks but their final comment was - if we (Maxwell and I together) could not fix the fault they would send me a completely new windlass, to my next destination or port of call, free of charge and freight free (I could return the old one, I've had it for 18 months, at my leisure).

In the event it was my fault as one of the power leads to the solenoid was loose, I simply tightened it up and hey presto it all worked, faultlessly. Really simple, my panic over. Entirely my fault as I installed.

This is not quite your situation. I bought my windlass direct from Maxwell, we had discussed my special requirements, bigger motor, unusual chain specification - but the immediate offer of a new windlass provided me with the comfort that I had a very safe fall back and I would not need to retrieve by hand, or not for too long.

This is Maxwell, Brisbane, Australia - its the sort of service I expect (though sometimes it takes a bit of argument/negotiation). It might not be the same service from Vetus (who own Maxwell) in, say, the UK. I have the same service from Navico (B&G) and Volvo - which is why I expect it as the norm.

The only additional comment I would make is that, to me, its a very long cable run. We run our windlass, admittedly 6mm, off the house bank (and would always have the engine, or both engines, running,) and our cable run is 2m - easy on a cat as the batteries are in the saloon immediately aft of the mast and the windlass is aft of the bridgedeck immediately in front of the mast. I cannot measure our cables, they are hefty look at least 10/12mm but I'm convalescing at home - banned (grounds for divorce) from lifting (so cannot move the dinghy). We had major problems with our previous windlass from Muir, the solenoid kept sticking and like you I bought another, which also stuck. In the end I'd run one until it stuck too frequently swap round clean up the pins of the one I'd taken off and repeat. I was not impressed with Muir, so I don't get good service all the time - but part of the reason to buy the new windlass from Maxwell.

But you don't need to carry the whole thing, on the bus. You only need carry the motor which should disengage from the gearbox with 4 nuts/bolts and undo 2 or 3 cables and then pull off the solenoid. You should be able to get the motor off without touching anything else - though access might not be good - but you put it on so you should know how to get it off. Unless you think there is something wrong with the gearbox?

Jonathan
Click to expand...

I kept thinking it some thing I done , hard to believe a new motor is faulty. And off cause Lofrans want you to believe it can't be the motor , which don't make things easier .
But I think I come to the conclusion it has to be , as far as Lofrans spec , the cables are big enough , new breaker 110 euros still the same , new solenoid 80 euros still the same , drop test , seems ok , what left ? Gearbox or motor as I see it .
Our windlass is on our started battery and we have the engine running when it in use too .
I sure you read other posting of mind and know we are very experiencing when it come to anchoring so, we not doing things like trying the drag the boat with the windlass .
, I will do as Paul suggest just out of interest but as the trip is tripping just lifting loose chain , I can't see that making much different .
It's blow a 6 here to day up to a F7 later so it's not a day to be messing around .
Last thing I need is for another boat to start to drag and for us to have no way of getting our anchor up .
I think I going to have to go back to where I got it from and see what they will do about the problem .
 
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I might question who you bought from

This is 30 years ago - We had a new yacht and a little later had a problem with the folding prop. Cannot recall what it was now. I contacted the Gori, who asked for the prop number, which I gave them. They replied and said it was not unexpected, whatever the problem was, as the prop was 6 years old, the yacht was newish - the dealer, selling us the yacht had swapped the prop on their yacht for the new one on mine.


Our little windlass is an RC8/6. 1,000 watt motor with maxim lift of 600kg and a retrieval speed of 32m/min - its incredibly fast. Our chain is 6mm 0.8/m and anchor 8kg.

I know its not easy - on ours downright difficult - but you have a manual lift using a standard winch handle?

If you have a gearbox issue I'd expect the gearbox to be at least warm.

Have you thought of running the motor disconnected from the gear box? though not sure what it would tell you. and/or using the winch handle to manually lift - see if its unnecessarily hard (so something wrong with the shaft or gearbox).

Jonathan
 
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