Lobster pot marking: petition - response

[iLens]

The Government has responded to the petition – “Lobster Pots and Small Craft Safety”.
The bland response is

The Government takes safety at sea seriously. The UK has regulations in place regarding the marking of fishing gear. We are looking at areas in which the enforcement of regulations can be enhanced.
The UK has clear rules in place regarding the marking of all fishing gear. Council Regulation (European Commission) No. 1224/2009 outlines the rules applicable to all fishing vessels using passive (static) gear to mark fishing gear so that it is clearly identifiable. Further to this, the detailed rules for implementing this regulation outline the requirements for marker buoys to ensure visibility.
The Marine Management Organisation (MMO) undertake the enforcement of this regulation within England’s Exclusive Economic Zone (0-200 nautical miles) and have the power to investigate and take action. The Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities (IFCAs) have regional responsibilities within inshore waters (6 nautical miles). In instances where non-compliance is found, the master, owner or charterer of a fishing vessel may be fined or prosecuted for unmarked or poorly marked gear.
The government is looking at areas in which the enforcement of regulations can be enhanced. We have met with the Royal Yachting Association who have developed an online reporting form to allow fishers and boaters to identify any incident involving fishing gear. The collection of data from this process may help identify any potential solutions.
The RYA Fishing Gear Incident Reporting Form can be reached at:

www.rya.org.uk/go/entanglements

Further information on the marking of gear can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/marking-of-fishing-gear-retrieval-and-notification-of-lost-gear
Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

 

[Pete7]

No I disagree, but it will be a long fight and you need to think like a Civil Servant to out fox these people who are experts at this stuff. Start thinking of "Yes Minister".

What has happened so far is Defra have named the MMO as being liable. Now we need to insist the MMO carry out their responsibilities IAW EU Council Regulation 1224/2009.

Whether anyone or even the RYA has the stomach for the fight is a different question.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The government response is all we can expect from this useless, ineffective, weak willed tory government.. Having a site to report an incident - which I have used - is of no value unless action is taken to prevent future incidents. I consider Harbour authorities should do more in many areas as pots are often nominally within harbour bounds but without the will of the legal authorities to actually bring transgressors to court all action is frustrated.

Incidentally I have not renewed my RYA membership due to their feeble response on such safety issues. The RYA seem only to concentrate on Solent Sailors and Olympic funding but thats the subject for a different thread.

 

[Blue Sunray]

The government response is all we can expect from this useless, ineffective, weak willed tory government.. Having a site to report an incident - which I have used - is of no value unless action is taken to prevent future incidents. I consider Harbour authorities should do more in many areas as pots are often nominally within harbour bounds but without the will of the legal authorities to actually bring transgressors to court all action is frustrated.

Incidentally I have not renewed my RYA membership due to their feeble response on such safety issues. The RYA seem only to concentrate on Solent Sailors and Olympic funding but thats the subject for a different thread.

I hesitate to reply to what appears to be a little more than a strung together list of prejudices but at least one of the legal authorities (Southampton) were taking action until they were told it was beyond their powers to do so.

 

[prv]

No I disagree, but it will be a long fight and you need to think like a Civil Servant to out fox these people who are experts at this stuff.

I go to the pub from time to time with a Defra civil servant. He tells me that his department has basically no capacity (time, people, budget) to do anything beyond skeleton provision of their minimum legal obligations, as everything throughout the civil service is being diverted into trying to cope with Brexit.

Lobster pots are so far off the bottom of that list as to be laughable.

Pete

 

[Giblets]

The government response is all we can expect from this useless, ineffective, weak willed tory government..

TBH I think any government whatever colour would struggle with this particular problem. The 'hobby potter' will not take any notice of legislation or laws as the chances of being caught and prosecuted by using an unmarked milk bottle as a float are 1000 times less than nil.

 

[DJE]

TBH I think any government whatever colour would struggle with this particular problem. The 'hobby potter' will not take any notice of legislation or laws as the chances of being caught and prosecuted by using an unmarked milk bottle as a float are 1000 times less than nil.

Exactly. No point in a petition asking for a change in the law. The law is there but enforcement is practically impossible.

 

[Guise]

Exactly. No point in a petition asking for a change in the law. The law is there but enforcement is practically impossible.

If you read the regulation referred to you will see that the marking is only compulsory outside the 12 mile zone, driven by EU regulations. Inside there is no compulsory requirement, so for the majority of pots which bother us there is no law. So I would say there is every point in trying to get regulation inside the 12 mile zone. Or maybe I am reading it incorrectly?

 

[rotrax]

If you read the regulation referred to you will see that the marking is only compulsory outside the 12 mile zone, driven by EU regulations. Inside there is no compulsory requirement, so for the majority of pots which bother us there is no law. So I would say there is every point in trying to get regulation inside the 12 mile zone. Or maybe I am reading it incorrectly?

I read it that the MMO is responsible for 0-200 miles offshore within the Exclusive Economic Zone.

If they are unable-or unwilling-to do their duty, that is where pressure needs to be bought.

IMHO, of course......................

 

[Daydream believer]

I read it that the MMO is responsible for 0-200 miles offshore within the Exclusive Economic Zone.

If they are unable-or unwilling-to do their duty, that is where pressure needs to be bought.

IMHO, of course......................

Extract:-
"
The Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities (IFCAs) have regional responsibilities within inshore waters (6 nautical miles).
"
Well there is a starting point-- is there not?
That would start to get the message across to private users who are, in many cases, not even aware of what we are saying.
They could start by circulating leaflets to any boat that looks like it could be involved in crabbing activities to advise them of their obligations.
Written in a decent script, rather than an authoritarian, one would start to make a few aware at least.
Perhaps some guidance - ie Picture of how a marker might be constructed etc etc

I know some will just chuck it overboard but a poster campaign in the local pubs might help. Drop a few leaflets behind bars etc
Then a harbour master only has to confiscate the gear . Take the pots put a weight on the marker & leave a note on the marker saying why the gear has been removed. They can collect the gear at such & such a place
. Do not say anything about the fee on the notice ( but put it on the poster). When they turn up get their name & address first then hit them with a " Recovery Fee" ( less legal hassle than a fine) to get the gear back.
Do it in one or two areas to start with. Surely the RYA could help the IFCA with that

 

[mainsail1]

An RYA or Government publicity campaign that specified what a 'good' pot marker looks like and examples of the 'bad' might help. Then it will be for sailors to remove dangerous pot markers at sea themselves......A bit like cleaning up your local beach?
I think the message might finally get through to most fishermen.

 

[rotrax]

Extract:-
"
The Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities (IFCAs) have regional responsibilities within inshore waters (6 nautical miles).
"
Well there is a starting point-- is there not?
That would start to get the message across to private users who are, in many cases, not even aware of what we are saying.
They could start by circulating leaflets to any boat that looks like it could be involved in crabbing activities to advise them of their obligations.
Written in a decent script, rather than an authoritarian, one would start to make a few aware at least.
Perhaps some guidance - ie Picture of how a marker might be constructed etc etc

I know some will just chuck it overboard but a poster campaign in the local pubs might help. Drop a few leaflets behind bars etc
Then a harbour master only has to confiscate the gear . Take the pots put a weight on the marker & leave a note on the marker saying why the gear has been removed. They can collect the gear at such & such a place
. Do not say anything about the fee on the notice ( but put it on the poster). When they turn up get their name & address first then hit them with a " Recovery Fee" ( less legal hassle than a fine) to get the gear back.
Do it in one or two areas to start with. Surely the RYA could help the IFCA with that

So-two agencies responsible for the same area then.

No conflict there..................................

 

[Guise]

No matter who is responsible the regulation only says

"If you fish inside the 12 nautical mile limit it is recommended that you use buoys marked with your vessel’s PLN so that your gear is easily identifiable".

As there is no standard of labelling or buoy design required within the 12 mile zone there is nothing for the authorities to enforce.

 

[lpdsn]

What has happened so far is Defra have named the MMO as being liable. Now we need to insist the MMO carry out their responsibilities IAW EU Council Regulation 1224/2009.

I've just read the latest MAIB report where the MMO approved the anchoring of a huge barge over the top of the power interconnect between the UK and France leading to parts of it being cut. Seems the power cables were laid in 1986 and weren't shown on the 1980 edition chart the MMO used for the approval. Maybe there's a few things higher up on their to-do list than pot markers.

 

[Daydream believer]

No matter who is responsible the regulation only says

"If you fish inside the 12 nautical mile limit it is recommended that you use buoys marked with your vessel’s PLN so that your gear is easily identifiable".

As there is no standard of labelling or buoy design required within the 12 mile zone there is nothing for the authorities to enforce.

As for buoy design the post in #1 seems to differ from what you suggest. Where did you get the term " recommended" from?

Labeling is not the problem for us, it is the problem of it not being something we can see. So if it is removed as I suggested, then whoever lays it gets caught & later identified if they come forward to recover the gear. If not then they keep loosing gear until they get the message.

 

[Giblets]

As for buoy design the post in #1 seems to differ from what you suggest. Where did you get the term " recommended" from?

Labeling is not the problem for us, it is the problem of it not being something we can see. So if it is removed as I suggested, then whoever lays it gets caught & later identified if they come forward to recover the gear. If not then they keep loosing gear until they get the message.

Sadly if the (non-official) leisure boater deliberately removes and/or damages fishing gear then they are guilty of theft and/or criminal damage.

 

[DJE]

If you read the regulation referred to you will see that the marking is only compulsory outside the 12 mile zone, driven by EU regulations. Inside there is no compulsory requirement, so for the majority of pots which bother us there is no law. So I would say there is every point in trying to get regulation inside the 12 mile zone. Or maybe I am reading it incorrectly?

But it's been illegal in the Eastern Solent since 2005 and there are still plenty of badly marked pots.
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/qhm/portsmouth/regulations/fishing

 

[prv]

But it's been illegal in the Eastern Solent since 2005 and there are still plenty of badly marked pots.
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/qhm/portsmouth/regulations/fishing

Exactly - and my understanding is that Southampton have similar rules so the whole Solent is covered. And this one of the most-trafficked bits of water in the country including frequent patrols by the harbour authorities and the Police. If bleach-bottle buoys exist here, writing laws to prohibit them in other places as well will have no practical effect.

As a legal blogger I read is fond of saying, making something illegal merely changes the possible consequences of doing that thing, it doesn't magic it out of existence.

Pete

 

[Blue Sunray]

Exactly - and my understanding is that Southampton have similar rules so the whole Solent is covered. And this one of the most-trafficked bits of water in the country including frequent patrols by the harbour authorities and the Police. If bleach-bottle buoys exist here, writing laws to prohibit them in other places as well will have no practical effect.

As a legal blogger I read is fond of saying, making something illegal merely changes the possible consequences of doing that thing, it doesn't magic it out of existence.

Pete

Southampton do indeed have similar rules, just not the power to enforce them:

Marking of fishing gear

The harbour authority had issued a local notice to mariners relating to the laying and marking of fishing gear in Southampton Water. However, the harbour authority had received legal advice that it is not able to effectively enforce this reasonable requirement under its existing statutory powers.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Yachting Casuals and Fishermen Casuals could meet up on the seafront and sort it out.