LM 28 or Hunter Pilot 27?

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Falling Star

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I've kind of narrowed our choice for the next boat down to one of these two.

So which is the best?

Is there much difference in sailing performance? Also, in no particular preference, which one is:

Most comfortable?
Feeling of space inside?
Visibility when steering and general handling?
Ease of servicing the engine, stern gland etc. ?
Quality of build?
Lack of issues?

All opinions gratefully received.

Thank you.
 
I may be biased, as I have an LM 27 (predecessor of the LM28). LMs are very well built - well above the standard of most British built boats of that era. They are full of really clever, practical and pleasing details. Comfortable. Excellent feeling of space for their size, and the 'built in' (original standard equipment) cockpit canopy effectively gives you an extra room when tied up.

Note that the LM28 was in a later range of LMs (along with the LM26, LM30 and LM32), which developed the strengths of the preceding range (LM24, LM27). The earlier boats had shallow draft long keels, hull shapes derived from Baltic fishing boats, and conventional stern shaft drive propulsion, and were hugely successful in sales numbers. They sail much better than you would imagine from their chunky look. The later range retained the general approach to interior layout, added a whole host of refinements along with more modern interior and exterior styling, and had significantly different (from the earlier range) 'yacht' shaped hulls, with fin keels (a few have bilge keels) and propulsion via saildrives.

I am not aware of any particular difficulties in engine, etc. servicing. They don't have a stern gland as they have a saildrive. Good visibility from the wheelhouse. Visibility from the cockpit not so great, as you have the wheelhouse somewhat in the way looking forward. Some owners build seats in the aft quarters to give a clear view over the wheelhouse (see owners website below). Although LM no longer produce boats (they are now the largest producer of wind turbine blades in the world, which tells you something about their FRP skills and quality control), many of the parts (e.g. canopies, sails, etc.) are still available off the shelf from the other Danish companies who supplied the original equipment to LM.

English language LM owners site (predominantly, but not exclusively, UK) here: http://lmowners.proboards.com You will find a wealth of info if you rummage around or ask questions. Danish owners site here: https://lmklubben.dk

Before I bought the LM I had been quite interested in the Hunter Pilot 27. I am sure they are fine boats, too, but one of the things that really put me off was the apparent lack of any horizontal shelving/storage to just put things down, and after reading around I wasn't convinced that the inside steering position was that practical.
 
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If appearances matter, I think the Dane has a big advantage. It's chunky and purposeful and the wheelhouse is clearly designed to make the boat comfortable to helm in miserable weather, while the saloon stays below decks.

48511569807_078807c625_b.jpg


Whereas, (in my view) the Hunter looks like what it is...a roomy saloon squeezed without much finesse onto a not very big hull, and made almost tall enough to enable steering from inside.

48511429726_3d8d2a24dc_b.jpg


It looks to me like the LM hasn't compromised its purpose, although it likely compromises some performance...meanwhile the Hunter probably compromises the effectiveness of the interior helm, in order to make it a better sailing boat. No idea if that's how they perform, but I like the LM's all-weather approach better than the half-and-half approach of the British boat.

I expect that anybody who seriously wants to ensure their boat needn't be a cold wet place in cold wet weather, would rather take the dedicated-wheelhouse route than the deck saloon way. Deck saloon owners usually say they'd rather steer outside anyway.
 
As an LM27 owner I admit bias and Navigator really really likes it and ability to steer very comfortably from wheel house. The interior of LM27 is exactly the same as the later LM28 and Scanyacht 290. If we could have afforded the slightly bigger newer versions we would have. The hull of LM28 and Scanyacht290 is similar quality but more pointy at bows thus faster and having a bit more between mast and bows thus bigger foresail for very similar weight. The LM27 rolls a bit due to v shallow draft and fishing boat hull. Just like an 8m fishing boat in fact, but this should be less with the LM28. The LMs usually come with full canvas cockpit hood and you can motor away or even sail with it up with care. Good for outings in usual shite UK weather. View from tiller poor when trying to keep away from cooking in pilothouse though.

Possibly the Hunter sails marginally better, but the LMs sail well enough for cruiser and has reasonable sail area to displacement ration, and the dirty little secret is that those who of us who travel round the UK coast use the old Iron Topsail quite a lot. The only LM downside is lack of seating provided for two in the wheel house. Cushion on top of closed up galley unit to port plus a footrest, sorts that out.
 
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I'm struggling with the choice. Coming from motor boats, I am tempted by the Hunter's design as this seems more like a motor boat, but with sails - if that makes any sense.

On the other hand, we do want a sailing boat now, so it would seem logical to choose the one that arguably sails better. Another plus for the LM is that the engines on the 27/28 seem to be larger than the 14hp in the Hunter.

Years ago, we had an old Nauticat and I remember that we probably did as much motoring as sailing, so maybe a bigger engine would be an advantage.

But, I'm thinking that whatever boat we get, it shouldn't be too old as I'm not finding maintenance so easy now. I realise that 'newer' doesn't necessarily equate to better reliability but the LMs are earlier than the Hunters...............

I haven't had a Saildrive before. Maybe they are better than the conventional shaft? Or not?

Thanks for the replies so far.
 
Falling Star said:
Coming from motor boats, I am tempted by the Hunter's design as this seems more like a motor boat, but with sails - if that makes any sense. On the other hand, we do want a sailing boat now, so it would seem logical to choose the one that arguably sails better.
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I think you mean the LM is more like a motorboat with sails, but you're right about the decision you have to make.

As a previous motor-boater, the effect of dropping the wonderful comfort of genuine weatherproof helming, and committing yourself instead to a boat which will put you outside almost all of the time, in all weather, needs careful thinking about.

I like Hunters, and I belong to their association, but even as a keen sailor, I'd always prefer the LM's genuine 50:50 motor/sailor design. They make no pretence about being sharp sailing machines (although they're said to be much better than their styling might suggest) but when the wind is on the nose and it's cold and the rain begins, you'll prefer a boat with a commanding inside helm position.

The Hunter's great, but it's more like a pure sailing boat. That means biting the bullet and buying lots of expensive foul-weather gear.
 
dancrane said:
I think you mean the LM is more like a motorboat with sails, but you're right about the decision you have to make.

As a previous motor-boater, the effect of dropping the wonderful comfort of genuine weatherproof helming, and committing yourself instead to a boat which will put you outside almost all of the time, in all weather, needs careful thinking about.

I like Hunters, and I belong to their association, but even as a keen sailor, I'd always prefer the LM's genuine 50:50 motor/sailor design. They make no pretence about being sharp sailing machines (although they're said to be much better than their styling might suggest) but when the wind is on the nose and it's cold and the rain begins, you'll prefer a boat with a commanding inside helm position.

The Hunter's great, but it's more like a pure sailing boat. That means biting the bullet and buying lots of expensive foul-weather gear.
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Yes I am taking my foulies off our LM and putting them back on our Westerly 31, I simply don't need them on our LM but will certainly need them on the Westerly.

I only need fairly good workwear waterproof for picking up moorings and rowing ashore. £39 not £200.
 
dancrane said:
If appearances matter, I think the Dane has a big advantage. It's chunky and purposeful and the wheelhouse is clearly designed to make the boat comfortable to helm in miserable weather, while the saloon stays below decks.

48511569807_078807c625_b.jpg


Whereas, (in my view) the Hunter looks like what it is...a roomy saloon squeezed without much finesse onto a not very big hull, and made almost tall enough to enable steering from inside.

48511429726_3d8d2a24dc_b.jpg


It looks to me like the LM hasn't compromised its purpose, although it likely compromises some performance...meanwhile the Hunter probably compromises the effectiveness of the interior helm, in order to make it a better sailing boat. No idea if that's how they perform, but I like the LM's all-weather approach better than the half-and-half approach of the British boat.

I expect that anybody who seriously wants to ensure their boat needn't be a cold wet place in cold wet weather, would rather take the dedicated-wheelhouse route than the deck saloon way. Deck saloon owners usually say they'd rather steer outside anyway.
Click to expand...

+1, have sailed both; the LM is way more soildly built, but the Hunter is quite a lot faster especially in light winds - and passage making speed often equates to safety, getting into port before gales.

However one of them will look after you if caught out in heavy weather and here's a clue - it isn't the Hunter. :)
 
Seajet said:
+1, have sailed both; the LM is way more soildly built, but the Hunter is quite a lot faster especially in light winds - and passage making speed often equates to safety, getting into port before gales.

However one of them will look after you if caught out in heavy weather and here's a clue - it isn't the Hunter. :)
Click to expand...


Tell that to the guy who took delivery of his Pilot 27 and sailed it singlehanded across Biscay, encountering a Force 9. Seemed to look after him ok - he was pretty praiseworthy afterwards! If I could find the article I'd post a link :(
 
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Hmm, I don't want to suggest the Hunter Pilot isn't a good boat, I'm pretty sure it would be my choice above many other designs...

...but, from the OP's perspective, which we may assume allowed him (and his passengers) not to have to endure every foul thing the weather sent, the LM is probably a more fitting choice.

I see that I said above "the LM hasn't compromised its purpose". Of course, its purpose is itself a compromise, but the design works faithfully to that division of uses. Whereas, in my view, the Hunter Pilot has tried to appeal to owners who want sailing performance and the option of weatherproof helming, but compromised the compromise by letting the sailing aspect dominate the design.
 
I prefer the LM, but the aft cabin on the Hunter appeals to me. Hunter also has self tacking jib which makes sense on this sort of boat. Does the LM have a self-tacker?
 
I'm getting the feeling the Hunter is being dismissed as not being as 'proper' a boat as the LM. Probably got too much of a mobo look.

I considered both and bought the Hunter. Didn't look round any LM's, so can only give half the picture. So far though I'm very happy with the Hunter – have done some Solent pottering and a two week trip stopping at points west out to Salcombe and back.

I don't get the 'compromised interior helm' comment. At 6'1" I can stand at the interior helm, as I can in nearly all of the deck saloon (or I can sit on the flap out seat), there’s fine all-round visibility, I can control the engine. What's lacking? Maybe you have to clamber up the companionway steps to grab a sheet - bit awkward in a rush.

The sense of space is awesome. The deck saloon 'living room' is always set up ready for you to cook, sit to eat at the table, wash up etc. all with harbour views.

Cabins are good and roomy - aft double berth was a big draw for me. Headroom is compromised at the deck saloon forward settee berth and the sink, but by no means un-workable.
At sea the motion is good and steady.

Handling is fine. Turns quickly enough, forward and reverse, in the marina.

Feels very solidly build. Plenty of wood, wouldn't say it was plasticky at all - look at the pictures. Ultimately, I'm guessing the LM has a higher standard of joinery - companionway steps of the Hunter look a little bit rough and ready.

Engine access is fine. Remove companionway steps for front access. Remove panels in the aft berth for rear access - engine water cock, stern gland burping etc.

No issues so far, apart from groaning noise, as per PBO forum post - probably blocked up cutlass bearing flutes or something. Nothing to do with the boat design.

Can’t comment on the heavy weather sea-worthiness. With modern weather forecasting, not a big issue for me. Suspect it will be fine (as per Bay of Biscay adventure). Not convinced long keels are the be all and end all.

Drawbacks? Would like more speed/sailing excitement. You can’t have it all though, am happy with the compromise.
 
It's a tough choice for sure. Both fine boats with many good features.

Re. the Pilot, - I've seen a couple with spray hoods. Has anyone ever fitted a full cockpit cover? Would it be practical to do that?
 
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