liveaboard heating

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mike_bryon

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Winter is approaching and we will place an order for a heating system at the Southampton Boat Show. It is a decision we want to get right so we would greatly welcome your views on the suitability of our choice. We are planning to go for the Kabola Old Dutch room heater with a water coil (natural draft, 7KW). We plan to run 5 skirting radiators (0.58 KW each) and two towel rails from the water coil via a Bolin 24 V circulation pump. What do you think?

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by mike_bryon on 09/09/2004 07:21 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Can't really comment without knowing the type of your vessel, where she will be during the heating season and an idea of your lifestyle. However, a 'wet' system like this should be virtually silent and more comfortable than the blown diesel systems. However, it will draw power all the while it is on. If you are not on shore power will this be a problem? If you are on shore power during winter, have you considered heating by electricity? Electric convectors are cheap, you get them off the boat in the spring, don't use dc and are silent. They don't add moisture and you don't need to keep refuelling, either. While we have had blown diesel for the last five years we always use electricity in a marina; it is cheaper at the prices my marina charges.

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Sounds like to intend to run a lot of rads off the water coil -- I don't know much about teh Kabola product, but I am fairly familiar with water couls in an oil fired Rayburn.

The water coil is great for heating a hotwater tank, and one or two rads or a towel rail, but by the time you extend the plumbing to more than three or four everything starts to run a bit cool.

On the boat I have a Dickinson Newport Diesel at about 6 kw and makes a fine job of warmong most of the boat. but it benefits from having a small 12 volt computer fan set up to blow air over the chimney, which is where most of teh heat output develops.

fitting a coil to it is pretty easy, but Dickinson told me while it could heat water in the calorifier and maybne a towel rail or small rad, i couldn't put radiators all over the boat.

To provide quick and easy heat I bouth a Webasto air heater.

Talk to Kabola about running all those rads, and perhaps consider an eberspacher/webasto water heating system to run them if they say it might struggle.

Best regards,

Nick

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Keep away from Eberspacher. Great when new but rapidly become "Old" and costly to repair. the system you propose sounds great. check consumption of circulation pump and total calorific output of boiler then split 50% for domestic and same for heating. Consider three way valve operated from room and cylinder thermostat, or possibly a swiched system so that areas can be "turned off"
Rob

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We have 32 amps on the pontoon and intend to use electric heaters as a back up (during very cold spells or breakdowns) while in the UK. We plan to spend a couple of years in Venice (very cold, short winters) and will be lucky to find shore power there. She’s a big boat (60ft), five double cabins, two heads and saloon. We do not intend to heat domestic water with the Kabola system so the output of the water coil will be used only for the rads. The suggestion of the isolation valves is a good one I think especially perhaps for the towel rails (in case they draw too much heat). Thanks for the comments we plan to order the system on Sunday at the show. Any further comments greatly welcomed.

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Agree Dickinson great. We don't run rads but have an air outlet with long pipe (well HWMBO hasn't quite fitted it yet !) which we run at floor level to disperse air elsewhere.

Also have glass front so you can keep an eye on it and more importantly watch the flames - not quite a log fire but next best thing !

<hr width=100% size=1>a pragmatist is an optimist with a boat in the UK - but serious about not being in the UK !
 
Thanks Nick

I have spoken to Kobola on your advice and they say it should be OK to run the proposed level of rads given that we will not be heating domestic water as well as the rads (we will put valves on the towel rails so that we can cut them from the system if it runs too cool). We looked at the Dickenson but decided to go for the more powerful kabola. Also, the Kabola comes with the water coil already fitted. I like the idea of the fan blowing on the chimney and will give it a try. Thanks again.

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I would stay well away from using electric heating as your only source of heat if you can.
Last winter I had no chance to install my diesel stove and had to use electric convector heaters - all 5kw's worth.
At full pelt this cost us €360 per month (24hrs/day * €0.10/kw * 5kw * 30days).
Compare this with a dickinson stove of the same heat output using red/heating diesel at 15 litres per day (15*€.5*30) €225.

I was still not warm!!

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>>At full pelt this cost us €360 per month (24hrs/day * €0.10/kw * 5kw * 30days).
Compare this with a dickinson stove of the same heat output using red/heating diesel at 15 litres per day (15*€.5*30) €225.

I was still not warm!! <<

5kW 24/24 is a hell of a lot of power for a boat. But then you don't say what sort of boat, where it was, or whether all the 'doors and windows' were open. Here at Chichester Marina I am supposed to pay 4p per kWh, which is rather less than your charge and, on your calculations, would be a lot less than heating with diesel, so people should check what their marina charges them. Red diesel isn't available overseas, so that is another consideration when planning a heating system.

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We have been living aboard our Nicholson 48 for 5 years now. When we bought the boat she had no serious heating, so after a lot of listening we decided to install the Kabola B8. It has an exhaust pipe, needs no chimney. This is an advantage, the heater also works when heeled. Take a look at my post about it <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=LIVEABOARD&Number=215238&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=heerenleed&Match=Username&Searchpage=10&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=206440>here</A>.
PM me for any questions. We have become experts on this matter. In our climes, the battle is not really against the cold, but against condensation. Installing the right heating system can deal with it, along with adequate insulation.

Cheers

<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.heerenleed.tk>http://www.heerenleed.tk</A>
 
Thanks Lemain and Heererleed

At the Southampton Boat Show on Sunday we ordered a Kabola, Old English ships stove with back boiler. We were told that at full power the stove produces 5 KW, half of this through the back boiler, (with the full length chimney). We planned to go for the more powerful old Dutch but the company Kuranda (have been very helpful) believe that the old English has a more effective back boiler. We also ordered five, 0.5 KW rads to plumb from the back boiler and all the associated safety systems, pumps and so on. We will be able to isolate some of the rads so divert more heat to other parts of the boat if necessary. The ship’s stove will be in the saloon and we will rely on it to heat this area. We will blank off the chimney and not use the system when sailing. This winter the system will be on all the time and we hope it will both keep most of the cold and most of the condensation at bay.

We plan to top up with electric heaters when/if necessary. We believe our boat to be quite well insulated, we plan to add some more and will improve it further if we find we are cold.

We will fit the system ourselves so we will better understand it and should be in a position to modify it/improve it if it proves less effective than suggested by the supplier.

Wish us luck and thanks again.



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I'd never thought about the potential advantages of having kids for this kind of job - nice and small to climb in lockers !

Hope it all goes well. Where are you planning to go ?

<hr width=100% size=1>a pragmatist is an optimist with a boat in the UK - but serious about not being in the UK !
 
Only wine, property and cheese are cheap in France. Everything else seems expensive.
Electricity at my yard is costing me 10 cents plus the 19% tax per unit. I'm suprised your paying only 4p per unit in chichester as last year i was paying 6 or 7pence plus tax at my home!
As for fuel costs, you can get red diesel in France which is taxed a lot less than normal clear diesel.
It is only to be used for generators, heating or for commercial bargees.
We do not have the diesel subsidy for leisure use as in the UK

We have a 49 foot uninsulated motor crusier and basically its easy for it to loose 5kw of heat.
2Kw in the saloon, 1Kw in the forecabins, 1Kw in the rear cabin and 1Kw in the wheelhouse


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ashley on 14/09/2004 23:37 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Mike,

I do wish you good luck! You are absolutely right wishing to install everything yourself. We did this too, and I know exactly how the system is put together. Also, all tubing will come where YOU want it, as to make the best use of all heat. Do consder using the Tylene (= grey plastic) tubing. We did so and it's to our full satisfaction. A doddle to install, really, if you have the tools coming with the system, and use their couplings.

Again: good luck.


<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.heerenleed.tk>http://www.heerenleed.tk</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by heerenleed on 15/09/2004 10:49 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Mike,

I do wish you good luck! You are absolutely right wishing to install everything yourself. We did this too, and I know exactly how the system is put together. Also, all tubing will come where YOU want it, as to make the best use of all heat. Do consder using the Tylene (= grey plastic) tubing. We did so and it's to our full satisfaction. A doddle to install, really, if you have the tools coming with the system, and use their couplings.

Again: good luck.


<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.heerenleed.tk>http://www.heerenleed.tk</A>
 
Hi Pragmatist,

Thanks for the encouragement. The kids are 3, 5, 7 and 11 years of age and fitting the heating around them should prove an interesting obstacle course.

For the next couple of years we plan to sail only two months of the year returning to Cowes. This summer we spent the time in the Azores (our third trip to this fantastic group). Next summer we may well return to the Madeira group, it is still in discussion. We then plan to live aboard in Venice for a while before pushing off for a longer cruise. We want to visit a good many of the Atlantic islands both north and south.

Regards


Mike


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Hi Mike,

Good luck with the installation. To add another dimension to this discussion in case others are following the thread, but since you are sailing for warmer climes, don't forget that air conditioners can run in 'reverse cycle', i.e. give out heat. As you probably know, fridges, air conditioners, etc., are based on mechanical heat pumps and the useful work they do is typically between two and three times the energy input (COP, Coefficient Of Performance between 2 and 3). So, for 1kW in, you could get 2kW or 2.5kW out.

We have two Cruise Air reversible air conditioners (I wouldn't have fitted them, personally, but the previous owner had them fitted) and I am most impressed in both modes. The unit in our aft suite gets us as warm as toast - great for having a shower, dressing, etc. It suits us because not only is it very energy/cost efficient, it does not burn our diesel. The other unit is in our forward guest cabin which allows the guests to have independent heating or cooling.

It is noisy, however, but unlike an electric fan heater, it isn't an offensive noise (don't know why - a personal thing, I suppose). The other downside with ours is the water pump which discharges constantly out of a skin fitting while running - we don't notice it on board but neighbours might find it irritating so I always have to check that it won't annoy anyone before turning it on. For this reason I don't consider them to be the primary heating system - we have electric convectors, fan heater and a large blown Eberspacher piped to all cabins and heads but I consider the latter to be for use in very cold weather, coming aboard when cold or when not on shore power.

Since we are bound for the Med I am pleased to have air conditioning on board even though we do not intend to be in marinas much in the summer; a few hours coolth can be very nice when it gets really hot and we will be running the generator for a couple of hours a day in any case.

Anyway, good luck with your installation - let us know how you are getting on. There must be a wealth of experience here of fitting such things so it would be worth asking if you have any problems.

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