Lithium batteries - are they worth it?

gregcope said:
Do any of those other forums for bulk buys @Poey50? As shipping is expensive it might help with costs. If i understood that video right he got 16cells for $1700 which is £
$106.25 per cell Or $425 for a 4 cell 280aH bank. Today that would be £326!
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Yes there was a UK based person doing just that. For anyone who is at the serious consideration stage, hanging around in the DIY Solar site is highly recommended. You will see sales being discussed all the time as well as discussions on a wide range of technical issues. It's not specifically boaty... you need Lithium Batteries in Boats Facebook group for that.
 
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Thanks. Never saw that one!

Amy just replied; £375 inc shipping and bus bars. Ex any UK tax. That is for 4x280Ah cells.
 
gregcope said:
Thanks. Never saw that one!

Amy just replied; £375 inc shipping and bus bars. Ex any UK tax. That is for 4x280Ah cells.
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As said, you need to get a shipped to door quote that includes everything. This is my quote which includes taxes, import duty, transport. Delivered cost is the only way you can make comparisons. But I would anticipate that Xuba is cheaper than R J Energy - that seems to be the experience at the moment anyway. But you will know when you have the shipped cost. This is my quote ...

For 4pcs 3.2v 270ah LiFePO4 Cells, USD166/pcs, sub total USD664, discount price: USD620
For 4pcs copper connector with M6 screws, USD8
Shipping fee to door by train, USD112 including taxes and import duties
Delivery time: 32days
Payment term: TT(wire transfer, added USD30) and PayPal(added 5% fee)

I wrote back to confirm as follows so there was no ambiguity ..

Hi Carl,

Yes I’d like to go ahead.

Can I just confirm that the cost will be:

USD 620 cells
USD 8 connectors and screws
USD 112 shipping, taxes and import duty

Total USD 740
Plus 5% Paypal USD 37

Shipped cost is USD 777.

Once he agreed this final price I then paid. I received a tracking number which was activated when the cells reached a distribution hub in Poland. Nothing happens till they reach Europe.

By the way if you are going to buy get 8 or certainly a minimum of 6 busbars as you will need them to connect them in parallel for top balancing.
 
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Poey50 said:
Energy density is a big gain, but not the only one and not necessarily the most important one for liveaboard cruisers. Here's a list from the useful Nordkyn design site.
  • Lithium batteries don’t suffer from low charge or deep discharge (down to a limit) and easily offer more than twice the usable storage for the same nominal capacity.
  • They charge much faster; they can literally absorb all of the available current until almost full.
  • They are near 100% current-efficient, 1Ah in means about 0.997Ah out: they waste very little energy. This also means no lengthy, wasteful absorption during which good electricity is turned into heat and gases.
  • They hardly suffer from cycling in marine applications.
  • They hardly self-discharge over time (provided they were never abused).
  • They provide a noticeably higher and much more constant system voltage during discharge, over 13 volts.
  • They are much lighter, much less toxic than lead-acid cells, fully sealed and don’t generate explosive gases, even internally.
  • They last many times longer than a lead-acid bank while providing much higher performance throughout, provided they are treated correctly.
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Ok I liked and respected the input from the people that have gone down this route. I am a long term user of lithium batteries from competitive radio controlled model car racing. I understand the chemistry and the charge/discharge characteristics. Of course LiPo will make lead acid look like a joke. Until the lipo catches fire and burns your boat down.

I am not saying it will! But its easy to demonstrate. If I take a lipo and puncture the cell structure... it will catch fire. Its a big fire that is very hard to put out.

Just saying. You can stop and hop out of your Tesla. Bit harder on the sea.

Its not for me.
 
Mark Payne said:
Ok I liked and respected the input from the people that have gone down this route. I am a long term user of lithium batteries from competitive radio controlled model car racing. I understand the chemistry and the charge/discharge characteristics. Of course LiPo will make lead acid look like a joke. Until the lipo catches fire and burns your boat down.

I am not saying it will! But its easy to demonstrate. If I take a lipo and puncture the cell structure... it will catch fire. Its a big fire that is very hard to put out.

Just saying. You can stop and hop out of your Tesla. Bit harder on the sea.

Its not for me.
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I think you are number 5, possibly 6, in an occasional series on this thread of people who pop up to demonstrate how little they understand how LiFePO4 is different to other lithium ion chemistries.
 
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TernVI said:
All these digital controlled chargers 'ought' to be reprogrammable to suit any battery chemistry.
They are essentially programmable voltage/current controlled converters.
Whether it's in the manufacturer's interest to give away or sell suitable new firmware instead of flogging new chargers to people keen to spend a lot on batteries might be a different question.
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I had a partial answer to your last point today. Earlier in the thread I had said that I was planning to use a Victron Blue Smart 12/30 mains charger as it had a less harsh CC/CV setting for LFP of 14.2 volt whereas most chargers with an LFP setting were 14.6v. I had delayed buying a charger in the hope of being able to get a fully user-customisable one (as Victron's solar controllers are) but gave up looking. It arrived today and it was a complete surprise to download the latest firmware and discover that the charger is now fully customisable. It's perfect for my amount of LFP. Maybe others knew this already but there is nothing in the advertising blurb I saw or the instructions that mentions anything other than the fixed LFP charge algorithm.
 
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RobbieW said:
fwiw theres a recent article on Morgans Cloud (paywalled) that describes just such a device, though I believe it is an alternator controller.
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That's the Wakespeed 500 external alternator regulator. It measures current as well as voltage and alternator temperature to regulate output so is seen as s step up from the Balmar ext regulator which just uses voltage and alternator temperature and seems popular with those who have big LFP banks. But ££££s.
 
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Mark Payne said:
Brill. Please expand. Mark.
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Poey50 said:
I think you are number 5, possibly 6, in an occasional series on this thread of people who pop up to demonstrate how little they understand how LiFePO4 is different to other lithium ion chemistries.
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Arh... Researching here: BatteryStuff Articles | Overview of the Different Types of Lithium Batteries on the Market
Yes... I did not appreciate LifePO4

Quote:

LiFePO4 (also known as Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries are a huge improvement over lead acid in weight, capacity and shelf life. The LiFePO4 batteries are the safest type of Lithium batteries as they will not overheat, and even if punctured they will not catch on fire. The cathode material in LiFePO4 batteries is not hazardous, and so poses no negative health hazards or environmental hazards. Due to the oxygen being bonded tightly to the molecule, there is no danger of the battery erupting into flames like there is with Lithium-Ion. The chemistry is so stable that LiFePO4 batteries will accept a charge from a lead-acid configured battery charger. Though less energy-dense than the Lithium-Ion and Lithium Polymer, Iron and Phosphate are abundant and cheaper to extract so costs are much more reasonable. LiFePO4 life expectancy is approximately 5-7 years.
 
Mark Payne said:
Arh... Researching here: BatteryStuff Articles | Overview of the Different Types of Lithium Batteries on the Market
Yes... I did not appreciate LifePO4

Quote:

LiFePO4 (also known as Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries are a huge improvement over lead acid in weight, capacity and shelf life. The LiFePO4 batteries are the safest type of Lithium batteries as they will not overheat, and even if punctured they will not catch on fire. The cathode material in LiFePO4 batteries is not hazardous, and so poses no negative health hazards or environmental hazards. Due to the oxygen being bonded tightly to the molecule, there is no danger of the battery erupting into flames like there is with Lithium-Ion. The chemistry is so stable that LiFePO4 batteries will accept a charge from a lead-acid configured battery charger. Though less energy-dense than the Lithium-Ion and Lithium Polymer, Iron and Phosphate are abundant and cheaper to extract so costs are much more reasonable. LiFePO4 life expectancy is approximately 5-7 years.
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Kudos to you for coming back in this way. You're off my naughty list.
 
Poey50 said:
That's the Wakespeed 500 external alternator regulator. It measures current as well as voltage and alternator temperature to regulate output so is seen as s step up from the Balmar ext regulator which just uses voltage and alternator and temperature and seems popular with those who have big LFP banks. But ££££s.
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I have the predecesor alternator regulators (named VSR) to the Wakespeed 500. At the time they were an Open Source project until the designer decided to go commercial and launched the Wakespeed 500. The VSR is basically just a PCB that you mount in an enclosure and then connect up as required. The VSR and Wakespeed 500 are essentially the same in terms of operation, function and programming, the Wakespeed is already in a proper enclosure with wiring harness etc.

The VSR (and presumably the Wakespeed) units are excellent for LiFePo4 applications and are fully configurable for charge profile, temperature control and many other things you would not even think about. I use them with standard automotive 120A alternators and initial output is programmed to about 100A, this reduces by means of the alternator temperature control function so the alternators do not overheat. Just means that output is reduced to about 70 - 80A when the alternators are at max programmed temperature, but these alternators only cost about £90 each so I am more than happy to accept the reduced output rather than pay £700 - £800 for a Balmar or Mastervolt high output alternator.

Converting a standard automotive alternator to external regulation with the Wakespeed 500 is a fairly simple process and well within the capabilities of anyone with decent DIY electrical knowledge and skills.

Unfortunately the Wakespeed 500 is much more expensive than the original VSR units. However the designer is very helpful and if you ever need any technical support then I am sure Al will provide much quicker and better service than the likes of Balmar or Mastervolt. For anyone considering external regulators I would recommend the Wakespeed in preference to the Balmar or Mastervolt offerings.
 
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