Listen Up....I do NOT hate narrowboats !

[boatone]

It seems that some peeps are visiing this forum and getting the idea that we are all anti narowboats here. So, for the record, I do not hate narowboats.

I think my side of the Great Debate in Novembers MBM makes my view quite clear:

Quote:
"Do Narrow Boats belong on the Thames? Why not? They are not unsuited to the river and their owners can and should be able to enjoy what is, and hopefully will continue to be, a wonderful waterway. However, their newly found freedom should not be at the expense and reduced enjoyment of those of us for whom the river has long been our chosen cruising ground and who pay the lion’s share of boat based revenue."

Read the rest of it and you will see that there are specific reasons why the influx of narrowboats onto the Thames is causing problems that need to be addressed.

Several of those criticising us as being anti narrowboats don't even boat on the Thames and have no understanding of these issues. I wonder how you Solent boaters would react if there were suddenly a huge number of square rigged sailing ships impeding your passage and taking up all the mooring space in Yarmouth or Lymington?

Not only are we being castigated as anti narrowboat, we seem to be being branded as snobs to boot!!!!!

Yes, theres been some heavy caustic humour here but making fun of serious issues has frequently been the harbinger of needed change.

 

[pheran]

Re: Listen Up....I do not HATE narrowboats !

I suspect you are being deliberately wound up, Tony. In particular, the West Country plonker who tried to have a go at me on a related thread earlier this week exhibited all the classic signs - try to fan the flames of some issue with contentious elements, then post complaints that the reply has been offensive and insulting (which it clearly wasn't). Yeah, classic troll. Best response is not to react.

 

[Thamesbank]

The solution: more moorings

The problem seems to be a lack of mooring facilities on the river. Many people are living on narrowboats as house prices have gone crazy. That's fine, but the number of moorings along the Thames has gone done, while prices for licences continues to rise.
The real problem then IMO is the funding of the Thames and the lack of facilities, not the increasing number of NB's.

 

[boatone]

Re: The solution: more moorings

Thats too simplistic a solution, especially as there is unlikely to be an immediate increase in mooring space. Narrowboat liveaboards are also not the major problem although them remaining static for long periods on 24 hour moorings can be. Rafting is the obvious immediate solution but the EA are not being aggressive enough in promoting this.

The increasing number of narrowboats IS creating the problem whichever way you try to describe it. Many are also not used to river etiquette and procedure, are unused to working in a current and certainly are not used to the larger locks they find on the river. OK, these are all education issues but they are a part of the problem. If I go onto a canal (and I had a narrowbeam cruiser for several years) I take the trouble to find out what is considered good practice and behave accordingly - just as I would expect to behave courteously when visiting your house. If I did not do so you would be entitled to be offended.

Add into the equation the disparate licence fee decisions being taken and the whole issue gets much more heated as is to be expected.

 

[byron]

Tony makes some valid points although I disagree that Liveaboards are not a problem. They are the folk who cut branches and even small trees down for their stoves and monopolise moorings intended for transients. They are the ones who tarnish the reputations of other NBers. I have a friend with a 60' NB and even he is shocked at some of the goings on.
Do I hate them? No of course not. I just feel that they should play by the same rules as everyone else and pay the same licence fees.
NB's have a dreadful reputation caused by a minority.

 

[Sammo]

Re: The solution: more moorings

So why is there an exodus from the canals onto the river? After all the narrowboats are much better suited to the canals.

I have had a look at charges and was surprised by the results, which when based on the comparable mooring charges show a big difference.

60` narrowboat annual CANAL licence £635.97

60` narrowboat annual THAMES licence £426.53

So the Thames licence is the cheaper option.


……..

 

[ianc1200]

Our facilities such as lock waiting areas and particularly sanitary stations are not suited to NB's. My friend's NB has a water tank of several hundred gallons size, we hve one under 50 gallons. Waiting at Abingdon trying to fill up when there's 3 narrowboats in front isn't fun! It's not their fault either, it's the EA encouraging them to come onto the Thames without increasing/making better the facilities, and ensuring that liveboards (or anybody) don't remain longer than they should on visitors moorings, which is wrong.

IanC

 

[boatone]

Re: The solution: more moorings

"So why is there an exodus from the canals onto the river? After all the narrowboats are much better suited to the canals."

There isnt an exodus from canals to river - its that many more narrowboats are visiting the Thames than used to be the case, and , of ccourse its mainly during the summer months.

"I have had a look at charges and was surprised by the results, which when based on the comparable mooring charges show a big difference.
60` narrowboat annual CANAL licence £635.97
60` narrowboat annual THAMES licence £426.53
So the Thames licence is the cheaper option."

Misleading comparison as the narrowboats are not buying Thames abnnual licences instead of BW licences (although I would guess some may buy a single Thames annual licence and spend the year on the river). Also, Thames licence fees are based on a length x beam formula so a 60 x 6'8" is same sort of price as a 40 foot cruiser with wider beam.

Gold licences give boats licenced by EA or BW access to the others waterways for a relatively low additional cost but this traffic is inevitably mainly canals to river.

The whole licence fee issue is a mess, especially when both BW and EA are children of DEFRA.

 

[Sammo]

Re: The solution: more moorings

It`s not misleading at all Tone, it`s perfectly simple.
Taking a 60` narrowboat as an example I went into the EA website and calculated the licence charge on the volume, I then went into the BWB website and calculated their charge for the same boat based on length, I’m not trying to pull the wool over your eyes the fact is the Thames is more attractive to a liverboard as if he can find a free mooring he can save himself over £200 a year, yes,

My boat at 37` costs £460 per annum yet a 60` Narrowboat at £426 pays less than I do and takes up a lot more space on popular moorings.
I don`t have a problem with visitors it`s just SOME liverboards that are taking advantage.

Ps I used to have a steel 40` narrowboat over 20 years ago but I always moored on the canals. With visits to the Thames and Severn.


………

 

[boatone]

Re: The solution: more moorings

You misunderstand me. I am not disputing your figures.
But I am not aware of any evidence that there is a significant increase in the number of narow boats becoming full Thames licence purchasers. As I said, the problems created by increased numbers is primarily due to a rise in the number of NB's visiting the Thames.
Also, if they take out a full Thames licence then the whole of that fee goes to the EA whereas a gold licenced NB would only pay a much reduced contribution to the EA, its primary licence fee going to BW.

Narrowboats tend to work the system with some 2000 miles of canals for them to explore. I believe there are relatively few licenced as permanently Thames based.

 

[byron]

[ QUOTE ]
Our facilities such as lock waiting areas and particularly sanitary stations are not suited to NB's.

IanC

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an aspect I don't ever consider which just shows how blinkered I am. I have water here and when on the move I get water at other folk's houses up and down the river. A sort of scratch yer back situation which exists among many riparian owners. However I can imagine how frustrating it must be to wait hours to take on a few gallons while someone takes on 2 or 3 tons. It puts me in mind of a time when I went in to Blankenberg for fuel only to find a huge Dutch boat taking on several tons. He immediately stopped filling and told told the attendant to fill me as I was only topping off, he told me don't worry about my 60 gallons or so he'd meet me in the Yacht Club later to sort out what I owed. What a gentleman, when we met later he said you pay for dinner and we call it quits. Fuel costs then about 80p a gallon so dinner made me a profit /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[TrueBlue]

Re: all posts to date

When this forum started I was delighted that Our Glorious River had a place all its own, and I hoped it wouldn't descend to the mud slinging levels of other forums on this BB.

So I was incredibly distressed when the hostility started towards these minority craft. I can no longer remain silent, and as the tide is beginning to turn to peaceful co-existence, I'd like to make some points.



Increase in numbers
I'm wondering if this is actually true. This year has been different due to the Waterways Festival at Beale Park. This focused attention on the river - which as NB folk know is what these festivals were intended to do. Accordingly long term cruising peeps decided to make a season of it. EA offered two for the price of one which encouraged owners to dally on the river. All of this happened around the peak season and it looked like a take over!

I expect that next season there won't be such a problem.

Most NBs visiting the Thames scuttle up or down and disappear to their own ditch as quickly as possible because it's furrin' and the natives are quite hostile. Those who are Thames registered are relatively few in numbers (OK I haven't checked with EA as to specific numbers )



Liveaboards
These fall into two categories -
Those who choose not to fit into society for whatever reason, and who probably don't give a damn. Because they're mobile they probably care less about behaving sociably than if they were in a fixed location. Most of them keep to themselves and stay well away from official or popular mooring places.

A noticeable exception is the use of the "Tesco layby" which is seen by most boaters as an official shopping mooring. AFAIK and at variance with Byron, I understood that is was provided by RBC an may well have been built many years ago well before Tesco was built nearby. Thus nobody has any rights.. It is a pain 'cos in concert with others we use Tesco as an excellent shopping location.

The other type of liveaboard likes his comforts such as 'leccy, phone connection and drinking water. I wonder where they moor?

Local knowledge
If I'm right about the visitors use of the river, then it's not surprising that they don't know how to behave.

You should be aware of two major points
1). On the canals you are free to moor anywhere on the towpath side unless indicated otherwise. on the River EA imply that they can only moor at official sites. So that's what they do. Coupled with the fact that EA doesn't have the funds / doesn't care / whatever to maintain those moorings anyway Examples are Wargrave where the usable length is half what it could be, and to a lesser extent on "Desborough" island.
2). On the canals it is usual to navigate in the centre of the cut to avoid getting stuck on the mud and reduce wash. When you see another craft approaching you bear away at the last moment and pass along. So it may appear that they are hogging the channel. That's not intentional. A friendly toot will make them move over.
Anyway most river cruisers have loads of power so you can't complain they are blocking your passage.

Licenses
I can only take issue over the Gold license This is highly disproportionate. For a BW customer the extra over and above his BW license is about one month's fee. For an EA registered boat the extra equates to a full year's license. That's most unfair.


Boating on the canals used to be a friendly and gentlemanly affair, say Good Morning to everyone, help with folk locking down / up while you're waiting, set the lock for any following craft and have a chat en route. Now there seems to be an attitude of grab it, fill it and B* off when done. Devil take the hindmost. Not nice, so I guess people are leaving to more pleasant locations. Especially on the lower Oxford canal which seems to be wall to wall boats.

Sooo chaps and chapesses, it may be a matter of know thine enemy, at least if you the enemy's raison d'etre you can take avoiding action rather than raising your blood pressure.

Enough for now.....

 

[byron]

Re: all posts to date

The Tesco moorings. These were built at Tescos cost with RBC permission as it is their land, their purpose being to enable boaters to call in for their shopping. They are 2 hour moorings and one of the few places petrol boats have only a short walk to buy fuel.
As regards 'mud slinging' I think people are being restrained and fair in debating the matter.
The Beale Rally for NBs was a truly wonderful event but bears no issue as it was perfectly organised, indeed, impressively organised. Furthermore this is the 2nd year they have run it.
I do take your comments on board about their ability to moor anywhere on a canal, this is something I am aware of.
As I have constantly stated and reiterate now. It is just the few that give the rest a bad name. If I were truly anti NBs I would ban them mooring on the fields above my home although I do move them on after 3-4 days. I will not allow them to moor directly on my 600 yards of garden frontage but that is a personal thing, I find them unattractive to look out of my windows on.

 

[TrueBlue]

Re: all posts to date

Corrected again..
I looked at the staging (before the collapsed section) and the railings and assumed that both had been there for many years (the staging looked a bit like the one at Staines - which "belonged" to a now defunct boatyard ?). Both sites are very useful for shopping, so overstayers at both should be made most unwelcome, but long gone are the days when a "quiet word" would suffice.

Being a newcomer to the Thames (only rising 6 years now), I get a vicarious pleasure in working out what's where and to some extent who's where. Indeed I always thought that your magnificent frontage was the boat park for the Snaffle and Firkin on the other side....

I certainly not want any boat mooring at the bottom of my garden, but my ditch is too small. We may have inadvertently moored overnight on your fields -opposite that most cheerful chandlery (sic), so I apologise in retrospect. If I see a Chentleman on his green and Yellow tractor next season I might even wander over - if that's OK - and exchange pleasantries, but doubtless we'll be exchanging views before then.

I live and learn.

 

[Gavi]

Oh dear.. here I go....

I am new to the river and have, in the recent past, suggested one of our esteemed posters is overly anti-NB. However, as time goes on, I am annoyed to see that two NBs have taken residency on the mooring near where I live. A mooring that, in my few months here, was used by boats of all sorts that shared and made space for others. But for the last 2 months it has been greedily used by 2 NBs. I'll get the squirrels first....

 

[byron]

Re: all posts to date

Actually you will never see me on a tractor there, I never ever do anything with that land, even the cows you see aren't mine. The grazing, angling and shooting rights are all let out. People moor there overnight or for a day or two and no one has any objection to that. My personal moorings, when you see loads of boats there it's a yacht club rally. We have various clubs come throughout the season and most welcome they are too, maybe we are just lucky but in 20 years we have experienced hardly an incident or a liberty taken.

 

[ianc1200]

Re: all posts to date

True Blue

The problem is the facilities aren't available on the Thames to cater for the amount of NB's we're seeing, in the non IWA National years, but hopelessly overwhelmed when they hold their Festival. 20 years ago the average Thames boat was a Freeman 22 or a Seamaster 27. When my grandfather bought Straight Across in 1956 in was one of the bigger boats around (it is 30'). However the facilities, the visitors moorings, the lock layby sizes and the sanitary stations haven't been extended to meet the demand created by these larger sized boats. Ignoring the liveaboards many of the NB's are owned by retired or semi retired people who can spend much longer at the various free moorings and clog them up; the meadow below Lechlade Bridge and the Tesco's at Caversham are good examples.

I have far more narrowboat owning friends than those who have cruisers, and it a constant discussion point, but unless EA sort out the provision of the facilities offered it's unfair on narrowboat owners and even more unfair on Thames boaters not to reslove this problem.

IanC

 

[byron]

Re: all posts to date

You are so right. Boats have increased in size so much. I can remember when a Freeman 32 was considered huge. Now there's 45' Brooms, 41' Princess's and one company, I forget who, boasting that next year they too will be making one of their bigger craft low enough to get under Eton & Cookham Cut bridges which were always a restricting factor.