Lifting Keel / Survey

[stevelindos]

I realise that I have to come to my own conclusions but your opinions on either/both of the following matters would be appreciated:

a) We have found a yacht that we wish to make an offer for. It has had a survey done as recently as August 2004 (it is a 1999 boat) which found no defects which impact upon its purchase price or insurance value.
Would you still get your own survey done?

b) The yacht in question is a lifting version of a normally standard fin keel. We are attracted by the versatility of the lifting keel but have no experience of such a device. Does anyone one out there have any strong views on this feature that we might find useful?

Cheers to all,
Steve

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[graham]

It depends on what the recent survey was done for.

If it was for insurance purposes only it may not be as comprehensive as a survey done for pre purchase.

Also anyone can call themselves a "surveyor" was the survey done by a member of a recognised proffessional association such as the "YBDSA"?

A lifting keel does offer the ability to reduce draught but in most cases the boat will still need aditional support to keep it upright when dried out on hard sand or pebbles etc.

Obviously the keel mechanism will need maintaining ,smaller lifting keels (such as on my boat)usually have a mechanical winch similar to a trailer winch but with a brake to stop the keel dropping out of control.Larger keels have a hydraulic pump that operates a ram that raises and lowers the keel.

If you tell us what make and model the boat is you may get a reply from an owner.

On a legal point you would not have any comeback against a surveyor if the survey was commisioned by someone else.I dont think you have a lot of comeback even with your own survey as they word things carefully .

If I had a good feeling about the seller and the boat personally I dont think I would get it done again only weeks after it was last surveyed.

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[mighetto]

The yacht in question is a lifting version of a normally standard fin keel. We are attracted by the versatility of the lifting keel but have no experience of such a device.

Lifting keels are the Future of Yacht Design. One might think that hull damage is less likely owing to the lifting keel and it is. However, if the keel is weighted there can still be damage caused by an inattentive lift operator.

A Potter 18 was sailed to Hawaii a couple of years ago. There was absolutely no problem with the boat at the end of the voyage. She was put on a transport and returned to Berkeley California where lift operators dropped her about 5 feet into the water.

The drop caused the trunk housing the centerplank to crack and the damage was so bad that the owner decided to completely rework the Potter to a retracting bulb keel arrangement. The boat's name is Chubby or Tubby, something like that, and several articles about her have been done in Small Craft Advisor. I suppose a surveyor's work is only good until the next lift. That would apply to any boat. Stuff happens in the yard as well as out there.

I am encouraged to see lifting keels as an upgrade. Do tell us more. Up until 1996 there was general belief in the US that a lifting keel boat was not suitable for ocean use owing to the potential of water entering the boat through the centerboard slot. In 1996 a long court battle over this was won by the manufacturer of a centerboarder. A Columbia centerboarder is just embarking on a circumnavigation from Vancouver Canada.

Many do not know that Spray was a centerboarder prior to Slokum's modifications. This is a fascinating topic. Do tell us about the boat.



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[Joe_Cole]

"Lifting keels are the Future of Yacht Design"....

I'm not sure about that.

Lifting keels are fine for some situations, coastal cruising, creek crawling etc. However, I have my doubts that they are the best option for ocean sailing or serious racing. Generally a boat will perform better and be stiffer when it has a fixed keel. There are many boats which have been produced with fixed/lifting options, and I can't recall any which had a better performance with the lifting keel option.

My boat has a lifting keel, and I'm more than happy with it; but I do accept and recognize the limitations.

On the point of the "Spray". I'm not sure what the relevance is of it having been a centreboarder before Slocum rebuilt it. Surely the point is that when Slocum sailed her, she was NOT a centreboarder?

Before you say it; yes, I know that Mirabella has a lifting keel, but I don't think that a boat like that can really be regarded as typical!

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Joe_Cole on 25/10/2004 18:03 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Steve,

I'd say if you need a lift keel, get one, but if you don't, then don't.

The ability to reduce draft has merits if you sail shallow waters or want to get away from the crowds. But the lift keel has to have a mechanism, pivots, channels, etc, all of which are things that can go wrong and which cost extra money/effort to maintain. So if it's not essential, why bother?

PS, think about yacht legs if you do want to park on the beach.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[billmacfarlane]

There's lifting keels and lifting keels so to speak. You don't say what kind of boat it is e.g a Southerly or Parker can have a motorised arrangement whereas a Jeanneau has a fairly simple lifting arrangement. I'd go along with Ken and go with the fin keeler unless you need a lifting keel. I had a 31' Jeanneau for 11 years with a very simple centreplate which proved to be faultless and totally trouble free but a more complex mechanism might prove more troublesome over the years. I also had beaching legs which were useful but could be nervewracking on an unknown bottom.

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[PaulR]

have had over the years one vertical lifting keel , one swinging lifting centreboard not to mention one bilge keel (alright 2 bilge keels to be correct) and 3 fin keels, if you are going to use the liftkeel to it's best advantage can be super, one of ours we kept on a drying mooring and the other (a freedom 35) we used to dry out using legs and were happy to wriggle in to close shallow spots to make best use of the shallow draft, perhaps the best known lift keel freedom 35 also won the ym triangle and completed several transatlantics so by no means unseaworthy, over the years we had lift keel boats never had any incidents of keel sticking down or up - antifouling it was a bit of a palaver but for us would happily consider a liftkeeler again, have to admit to a certain occasional hankering for an ovni since looking at one at london show and certainly miss the ease of access to shallower spots with our current 5'7" fin compared to the various shallow draft options we have had, good luck

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[tugboat]

I don't know anything about lift keels so will leave comment to other forumites. Regarding survey, I would always commission my own. I want a surveyor who is working for me with a clear mandate. Also your insurance company may require a survey dated at time of purchase and showing in the text that it was commissioned by you. A phone call would verify this point.

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[brianhumber]

a) 1999 means most insurers will not want a survey until she is 15 years old ie 2014 so its really up to you and you own confidence and exprience. I am a C Eng so when I bought Ronhilda I had a hull survey only as I was quite happy to sus out the mast, sails, rigging, mechs and electrics myself. In the end I was with the surveyor and he only did what I was going to do anyway so I considered I had wasted my money - you live and learn.

b) having a lift keel I would never have anything else, but then i like ploughing the mud on a rising tide up rivers eg Morlaix, exploring the backwaters of Morbihan, getting into the Erchou Islands at low water, and doing things that people like Tom Cuncliff say you cannot do. Its nice these days to get into places others can not. If you do not want to do this but just want marina to marina sailing then stick to fixed keels. There is a price to pay in maintenance and my leeway can get excessive if I do not sail Ronhilda correctly. Have a good think about and then You makes yer choice and pays yer money.

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[pragmatist]

Well I don't think you have to sail from marina to marina with a fin keel - even in the UK you can anchor if you pick your spot. But I do agree with you about the joys of creek crawling. Miss the fun of quiet places and quiet nights which we had with bilge keelers.

<hr width=100% size=1>a pragmatist is an optimist with a boat in the UK - but serious about not being in the UK !

 

[alahol2]

The only thing I'd add to all the above is that a boat designed for fin keel that then gets a lifting keel may well be slightly more tender. I think mine is (although it was designed as lifting keel with fin keeled versions).

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.troppo.co.uk> Follow the Tightwad Sailor</A>

 

[Rob_Webb]

Lifting keel - others here are better qualified to comment on the details but bottom line is that if I thought the boat was 'right' in every other respect and the keel design had a good reputation, then I wouldn't let that put me off.

Survey - not clear from your post what purpose of Aug survey was? And have you seen a copy of it? Make sure it wasn't carried out by another prospective purchaser before you and it put them off i.e. was a bad survey. Even if it was a good survey I would still probably commission my own - for a few 100 pounds which isn't a big outlay considering you're likely to be spending 10,000s on the boat itself!

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[stevelindos]

Thanks to all, great insights. Much appreciated.

For info, assuming(!) that the boat is still for sale when our house is sold, we will get our own survey done.


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[Birdseye]

People will tell you that you cant sue the surveyor if the survey wasnt done for you - there is no contract. This may be correct but the ability in practise to sue a surveyor is limited by the cost, the exclusion clauses and the need to prove negligence, not simply that the surveyor was wrong. So personally, I would be happy to rely on such a survey but only if I had crawled all over the boat myself so that I could see what if anything the surveyor had missed and form an idea of his thoroughness. Not recommending that you do the same - simply stating what I am happy with.

You didnt say whether your proposed boat had a lifting keel (Southerly / Parker) or a centerboard (Ben Jan) The former gives a stability nearer to that of a fixed fin (Southerly AVS is 150 or more) whilct the latter will struggle to get much more than 120, and 110 is common. The significance is that it is not difficult to get knocked down to 110 / 120 So you will not be as capsize proof as you would in a fixed fin keel boat with a good ballast ratio. This might not worry you if you do coastal trips - you dont need a boat fit for the southern ocean if you are doing Plymouth to Falmouth. But it is a factor to have in mind.

And as for Slocum's boat - well he was lost at sea wasnt he?

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[Joe_Cole]

Slocum

Yes he was lost at sea, but not in "Spray".

I'm not sure where the centreboard story about the "Spray" came from though. Out of curiosity I looked it up last night in my copy of "Sailing Alone around the world". As far as I can see the boat never was a centreboarder, either before or after the rebuild. It looks to be a traditional long keeled boat, with a relatively shallow draft.

Mighetto may be able to throw some light on this.

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[ovniowners]

We have an Ovni 385 that has a centreboard and lifting rudder. I find these so practical for coastal sailing around the South Coast, I would not want to change to a fixed keel. Tidal height calculations are not important - if it looks deep enough, then it probably is (this Ovni only needs 50cm of water with plate up). If you do scrape the bottom with plate down, it is so reassuring to know you can easily pull it up if you need to! The one complaint my uncle has with his HR 43 is the relatively deep keel, which does restrict him in where he can anchor. More FAQ's about the Ovni can be found on the Ovni Owners' Club website (address below).

Paul

<hr width=100% size=1>The Ovni Owners' Club:

www.ovniowners.co.uk