Lift keel yachts - around 20ft and £5k max

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Vid

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I'm looking to get a small, inexpensive cruiser/racer to keep on a tidal river and to take part in yacht club cruiser races. I'll do a bit of pottering on the river, a very occasional overnight mooring up a creek with no more than two on board, and perhaps even venture out to sea a little but unlikely for long or far at first at least.

The only moorings available are drying ones and as I'd like some decent sailing performance I think a lift keel may be better than a bilge keel but happy to listen to advice.

Candidates are: Hunter Medina, Hunter Sonata, Achilles 24, Jaguar 22, Anderson 22.

I've sailed both Hunters and like them but the cockpit is rather small; the others look better proportioned in that respect but with their own compromises.

I've never owned a boat before, know little about the practicalities and am happy to learn but would rather pay a little extra for one in good condition than a little less and spend lots of time and money bringing it up.

Thoughts very much welcomed on the pros and cons of my longlist and other suggestions valued.

Vid
 
We had an Evolution 22 for a while. Quite a fast boat on clam water, great fun to sail and surprisingly good accommodation. Also it's close relative the "E-boat", which is more of a flush-decked racing version with worse accommodation. There are plenty of downsides to having a lift keeler though. if you have a log that pokes out of the bottom, you'll need to remove it every time you leave the boat to dry out (and that can be quite a messy process)! Also it's very hard to antifoul them! Depending on what you dry out on, you can get mud rammed up into the keel housing on successive dryings and it can be hard to shift. On the Evolution, you also have to share your galley area with a wet (and sometimes smelly!) keel if you dry out. The ruder on early Evolutions was a pain in the backside. It was the first bit to touch ground and it moves vertically in its carrier rather than swinging up like a dingy keel. If you hit something while moving fast it can do a fair bit of damage.
 
Thanks for your suggestions - I've seen the Limbo's before but didn't realise that's what they were and definitely worth a look.

Am I right in thinking a lift keel would sail better than a bilge keel but that they have difficulties related to potential damage to the keel when drying out as well as the operational and maintenance needs of the lifting mechanism.

Given that I'm going to be sailing around mudbanks in a relatively shallow area would I be better off by going for a shallower draft boat, ie the bilge keeler type?
 
I have a Dehler 22, or if you can stretch to it a 25 is bigger than the extra 3 feet suggest. I doubt you will get one for 5k though.

Pros: Well made, very pretty, Sporting and excellent handling/pointing ability, high quality lift keel mechanism, Excellent mid 80s Van der Stadt design. the 22 is quite light as it uses water ballast (not sure about the 25) No internal motor on 22 (lower costs with just an outboard). Probably a club racing 'dark horse' in light to medium airs. Not quite enough weight down below to compete with fin keels in a blow

Cons: You can only get spares from Germany, but most important bits are available. Due to sporting design space is best described as adequate, and certainly not generous (25 is a bit better) Cockpits are not big. They are mainly mid 80s boats, so not in first flush of youth.

We have two 22s and a 25 on Rutland Water now. They can be either kept on a mooring or launched 'big dinghy' style..which is what I do.

The Evolutions are great, but heavier than a D22, and closer to a D25 at a guess. They sail very well. Jag 21 is an excellent starter boat, within your price, but check condition carefully. Some are lovely and some have been a bit messed up..I know I looked at four Jag 21s before buying the Dehler.

Tim
 
A bloke in the TSA had a Parker 23 that looked nice. I did a bit of digging and it seems that they followed on from Seals

http://www.sealasc.org.uk/the_fleet.htm

Some pics and prices for an idea here
http://yachts.apolloduck.com/boats.phtml?id=877

I had a lot of fun in a First 18, sails well, but the keel mechanism probably wouldn't like sand and mud in the screw. You don't need to share the cabin with the keel when it's up though.

Your initial list seems to be light boats so you probably wouldn't be interested in Westerly Jousters or Warwicks I would think?
 
Vid said:
Am I right in thinking a lift keel would sail better than a bilge keel but that they have difficulties related to potential damage to the keel when drying out as well as the operational and maintenance needs of the lifting mechanism.
Given that I'm going to be sailing around mudbanks in a relatively shallow area would I be better off by going for a shallower draft boat, ie the bilge keeler type?
Click to expand...
I think your quoted summary is correct.

I have owned a lifting keel yacht - well, a heavy steel centreplate that dropped through an iron, vestigial keel - and am biased against them. For starters, the keel-box is inaccessible, all sorts of nasty things are going on in there, stones and other debris can be forced in when settling into a tidal bottom - they can jam the keel and are the devil to remove. Then the mechanism is something else to go wrong and be maintained, not to mention having to operate them. Hydraulic is probably the easiest, depending on the weight, but can have messy failures. Mechanical is the simplest but can be hard work on raising.

A lowered keel/centreplate can be infernally noisy in a calm, as the swell rocks the boat either side of the heavy, static appendage hanging down - lifting every time the wind drops is just not practicable. I used to be intensely bothered by this - usually unmentioned - attribute.

There must be a system to lock down the keel when dropped. You may not intend to go offshore but who knows what may happen if you do find yourself in rough waters and get rolled significantly - ponderous weights sliding up (with relation to the craft) then crashing down again can be catastrophic. I modified my own yacht to secure the centreplate when dropped.

I personally would never again consider such a craft, preferring instead a bilge keel yacht with its reputedly increased leeway, which may well be hardly noticeable in anything but competitive racing.
 
Another contender is a SK700. The fixed keel version is on the cover of PBO this week.

The keel does not fully retract so not ideal for drying out when onboard but does not bounce on the hull when it is drying out. Keel housing is from hull to deck so no 'smelly keel inside' and no risk of water sloshing throught the slot in a knockdown.

I would have a look at the areas you wish to get into with the keel up. I draw 0.5m which allowed me to use the boat about a third of the time with a mooring in the harbour of Christchurch. 0.7 or 0.5 would probably half that but your area may be more acommidating.
 
I had an Anderson22 for about 10 years and think they are great boats.Good sized cockpit fast for its size.Very Seaworthy.The keel slot doesnt fill with mud and jam as it does in some other boats ,the ballast is bolted to the lifting keel so when raised it blocks the slot off completely.
Ideal for drying in mud but on hard sand she will lean over unless you fit short legs.
 
Well inside your price bracket and with none of the nasty habits of your centreboarder is the Seal 22.

One of those was my first boat and used to do the Channel Islands on frequent occasions - we even slept 9 on it on one occasion.

Bill Parker bought the moulds from John Baker and produced it as the Parker 23.

The only boat IMHO mentioned in the thread, to compete was the Anderson 22.
 
Barnac1e said:
I think your quoted summary is correct.

I have owned a lifting keel yacht - well, a heavy steel centreplate that dropped through an iron, vestigial keel - and am biased against them. For starters, the keel-box is inaccessible, all sorts of nasty things are going on in there, stones and other debris can be forced in when settling into a tidal bottom - they can jam the keel and are the devil to remove. Then the mechanism is something else to go wrong and be maintained, not to mention having to operate them. Hydraulic is probably the easiest, depending on the weight, but can have messy failures. Mechanical is the simplest but can be hard work on raising.

A lowered keel/centreplate can be infernally noisy in a calm, as the swell rocks the boat either side of the heavy, static appendage hanging down - lifting every time the wind drops is just not practicable. I used to be intensely bothered by this - usually unmentioned - attribute.

There must be a system to lock down the keel when dropped. You may not intend to go offshore but who knows what may happen if you do find yourself in rough waters and get rolled significantly - ponderous weights sliding up (with relation to the craft) then crashing down again can be catastrophic. I modified my own yacht to secure the centreplate when dropped.

I personally would never again consider such a craft, preferring instead a bilge keel yacht with its reputedly increased leeway, which may well be hardly noticeable in anything but competitive racing.
Click to expand...

I'll put a word in for the Feeling 720 (if you can find one). Although these have a centreplate - thru iron stub keel they don't suffer from 'plate clang' when rolling in light airs. Inside the iron stub, near its bottom edge are 2 heavy nylon washers located on adjacent pegs at a particular spot creating a pinch point and eliminating any real plate movement athwartships.

They also have a leak off pipe fitted up inside the keel box, so if you do sit in the mud the water that is naturally 'trapped' above the mud can escape.

Oh, forgot to mention - great to sail too!
 
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Barnac1e said:
I think your quoted summary is correct.

I have owned a lifting keel yacht - well, a heavy steel centreplate that dropped through an iron, vestigial keel - and am biased against them. For starters, the keel-box is inaccessible, all sorts of nasty things are going on in there, stones and other debris can be forced in when settling into a tidal bottom - they can jam the keel and are the devil to remove. Then the mechanism is something else to go wrong and be maintained, not to mention having to operate them. Hydraulic is probably the easiest, depending on the weight, but can have messy failures. Mechanical is the simplest but can be hard work on raising.

A lowered keel/centreplate can be infernally noisy in a calm, as the swell rocks the boat either side of the heavy, static appendage hanging down - lifting every time the wind drops is just not practicable. I used to be intensely bothered by this - usually unmentioned - attribute.

There must be a system to lock down the keel when dropped. You may not intend to go offshore but who knows what may happen if you do find yourself in rough waters and get rolled significantly - ponderous weights sliding up (with relation to the craft) then crashing down again can be catastrophic. I modified my own yacht to secure the centreplate when dropped.
Click to expand...

I'd agree, but only to the point that any moving part brings additional complication/maintainance issues, but as to clonking, locking the keel down, weights crashing about in rough seas, the keel system on your boat must have been relatively unsophisticated in design . The Dehler uses a proper vertical lifting shaped foil that does not waggle, is not noisy and has a stainless screw thread mechanism that keeps it at whatever height you set it. Its about 90 turns of a winch handle to raise/lower fully, and the winding up raising bit is not ridiculously hard as it is geared accordingly, and SWMBO happily volunteers for the job. I can get a full overhaul kit from Germany should I need one.

Its a decent piece of quality German engineering as far as I can tell...and touch wood..has worked faultlessly. Not all lifting keels are born equal it would seem.

Tim
 
Alfie168 said:
I'd agree, but only to the point that any moving part brings additional complication/maintainance issues, but as to clonking, locking the keel down, weights crashing about in rough seas, the keel system on your boat must have been relatively unsophisticated in design.
[snipped]
Not all lifting keels are born equal it would seem.
Click to expand...
Yes Tim, you are right, my boat was rather basic, built as a one-off in wood in the 1960s from an even earlier design and I will concede that the principle will have improved considerably.

Nevertheless, I still remain uncomfortable at the thought of a high proportion of all-up weight of a boat being moveable, which many still are. Both for having to raise and having raised for you by the attitude of the boat in its very changeable environment.

There is the already much-discussed subject of the Ouzo, a Sailfish 25 with lifting keel, and the potential role played by its unsecured three-quarters of a ton of keel, perhaps getting rolled by the bow-wave of the Pride of Bilbao. After all, a sister ship did lose its entire keel straight through the bottom of the boat.

Having been a few times in extreme weather and some chaotic seas since owning my centreboarder, I often think back to it and am thankful that now all of my ballast is well bolted and encapsulated into the basic fabric of the vessel.
 
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