Liferaft Video Poll

Will the terrorist threat stop you from flying?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
All agreed.

The flimsy rope ladders that go horizontal as soon as you put your foot on them - the total flimsy nature of the construction - and much more mark the terrible quality of most current life rafts. Compared to the norm Viking are head and shoulders above them for quality of product.

They also offer a great service and are a very good company to deal with.

Most modern lifrafts on most pleasure boats are little more than serious looking lilo beds ....... the quality is terrible.

Viking make all those massive life rafts for commercial boats all of which have top be self righting by law.

I agree that stepping up to is the way to get into one..... not jumping into the water.
 
no i'm not sure i do agree with the idea of "jumping" or leaping or whatever into raft direct from boat/ship. Obvuously impossible from huge mjf-style ship anyway

I agree there is lack of immersion and of course it would be prefereable for that reason alone ...but there is vastly increased risk of injury to others already in the raft if people try and project themselvs directly. If frinstance a sinking was a slow thing, impossible-to fix leak well then perhaps yes - but if horrendousy bouncy 10m waves and difficult to judge from one vessel to another i think a direct jump might sound ok in theory but have big risks of injury to all.
 
I am not sure any liferaft will self right when tipped upside down with 4/6 people inside.. The video was shot in a pool, so you cannot see how well they perform in 8 mtr swells, as show empty.

However they look good kit, so it seems a good investment.
 
TCM
In practical terms - the jumps would be just a few feet not from any great height or distance and always preferable to step into it but always preferable to avoid getting into the water as well.
 
There is a way that those people inside can in effect wal around the raft to put it right - the natural buoyancy makes it very difficult to tip over in the first place even when empty as in the video let alone with 4 or six souls inside.
 
there may not be much mileage in battering away at people along the lines of: "until you all agree with me you're all wrong", most people bridle and disagree just for the hell of it.

For what it's worth I'll repeat what I said a year ago. A friend of mine is on | a N. sea oil rig support vessel. He and an experienced fisherman/lifeboatman were trained at The Robert Gordon centre in Aberdeen. They had to jump in the pool, with 'environmental' laid on, wind, waves, cold, and right a twelve man raft. Every time you turn it round and climb on the bottle it turns back before you can right it, BUT, as a fifty year old , fairly unfit smoking drinking non swimmer he did it in the end.
The next day they were taken to An struther and put in a liferaft in calm weather, closed down and were all seasick immediately. As I say endlessly, go and get the training first, none of it is as simple as you might imagine.
 
Fisherman
I am simply trying to increase awareness.

I have doene the survival training but not to the same extent as your friend.

I would agree that training is important - the more the better but in practice even your fiornd had great problems and anyone with common sense would not fancy their chances getting intop the sea in 25 knots worth of wind with the thermal shock etc and then trying to right a life raft right by a boat smashing up and down in the waves ....... if that can be avoided by self righting rafts all the better.

I am not really worried if folks agree or not - that is their right - I had the video clip of the raft in heavy seas and righting and thought it would raise awarness - if it had done that then it has done the job.
 
[ QUOTE ]
FYI - I understnad that the Viking should right itself with people inside. But if it doesn't, there's a breathing 'device' in the base.

[/ QUOTE ] I was told that device is actually a urinal - was the salesman taking the p!ss?

we definitely found the Viking attractive when we looked at LIBS, but went for a less expensive Plastimo. The video didn't make any difference to my buying motives but there is no option for that.
 
back to the poll, there was no option of
"it has not convinced me to buy a self righting nor has it it put me off, Ie undecided"
I know little about liferafts but i do want to buy one. my budget is £600, and if i buy new i can get the Seago PBO test winner (see may edition) well within budget which appears to be well made and is 1, far better than nothing, and 2. affordable.
I dont honestly think the video convinced me that viking are far better made than any others.
I prefer to do my own research and physcally take a look myself. Unfortunatly only Seago are on show locally to me.
 
Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

eh? You obviously haven't tried this then, or anything close!

You say that you'd like to step into a liferaft and i say a fine idea - try "stepping" into a liferaft or any vessel in much above a F5-6 in open sea and you have not much chance. I know from experience that i can get 4 crew on to a big boat (with swim platform) yawing in only 2m seas in 30knot wind from a big rib - but no way you can do this without getting wet and no chance of getting back to smaller boat really, or at least not without getting very very wet.

A swift and reliable go-go-go option is likely to jump from boat to water and then get on raft, with least risk of any harm from bigger busted/sinking boat.

Of course, the liferaft situation could be in calm conditions and then yep, perhaps a step aboard might be ok. But you sure about it even then? A really fast exit is needed if its a fire, or rocks coming up and untenable surf soon, all while the outboard petrol in those cans is now floating around, all sorts of other sparking battery stuff could happen - so it would usually be a better idea to get that liferaft well clear of this lot. It's not just you, remember, there is everyone else.

In bad-weather liferaft-using situation the liferaft could likely be yawing out of phase at *least* a couple of metres more likely mebbe three or four (the big sea is why it's better self righting innit?) and for that reason it won't be safe to have the liferaft nicely snuggled up to the stricken vessel like a tender all ready to step into nice and dry and cosy - cos otherwise the liferaft and/or occupants will likely get whammed in the rough seas up against (or under) the stricken vessel whilst each crewperson tries to get on liferaft whilst also Gludily keeping their socks and shoes lovely and dry. Isn't it nice in in this liferaft all dry and warm? -much better than mjf's or tcm's where they are sopping wet! I don't think so...

Your tribulations with the boat before boarding liferaft included the very hastiest of massive bilge pumping, and/or engine fixing, and/or desperate firefighting, and/or handling death or injury of crew and/or fighting against massive tons of water followed by dammit dammit rusharound collection of personal gear as boat sinks - and note that the "step up to liferaft" theory means the inside of your the boat is very wet indeed at this late stage ... so keeping your clothes dry ain't now much of an issue - and saving life and limb is.

Your threat to jump direct might actually be best be repelled by crew - I would certainly guard against you doing it unless in perfect conditions - forcing you to board from the sea to avoid your dangerous and unpractised jump-step, which with the unexpected depth of a liferaft will mean a crash landing onto the rest of us as we're recovering from the ordeal thus far. Umpteen stones of Gludy crunch, yes great, that's cheered us all up...

You're hoping that a jump-aboard tactic will ensure a comfortable and even enjoyable liferaft experience, rather than the last-gasp hell-on-earth survival ride that it actually is.

Flexibility in all these things ...of course - it *might* be possible to step neatly on to liferaft as you describe, but it's less rather than more likely, it's more risky in terms of bodily damage.

The dogmatic approach won't be much use in a situation i hope you never have.

Separately, your pronouncments about the various brands of liferafts being very very good or -pah- bad ... come hard on the heels of other similarly unwavering pronouncements about marine brand selection ...that was ultimately (and very unfortunately) shown to be the worst purchase of marine gear made by any forumite in the history of the forums. So, i would ease up a touch? This is a bit rough of me - but you might have a little look back at those trader threads and see how any not-pro-trader post was roundly rubbished "back to school for you" and so on.

I think others make decent liferafts that preserve life. I think two liferafts better than one and three better again. I think lashing out tons of money on liferaft might give a false idea of safety. I imagine Viking are quite good, but that doesn't mean those who don't choose Viking are unwise and penny-pinchingly foolish which seems to be the conclusion you want us all to reach, again. And I remain (reasonably) wary of your ability to judge the quality manufactured marine products and am suprised you remain so assuredly certain of your judgement .

Finally , I think this thread is one up from arguing about which brand of coffin is more prestigious or comfiest or efficient or otherwise best: because EVERYTHING else *before* coffin selection (and liferafts, nearly) is more important.

All imho.
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

Thanks tcm - a for a very entertaining post!

Given all the panic and rubbish going on in your life raft evacuation I can hardly think it would be safe to have people jump into the sea. Just imagine asking any ot those who have been aboard your boat including the mother in law to evacuate by jumping into the sea and them do not worry =- grab that raft bouncing up and down 10 feet whilst making sure you miss the boat that’s also doing the same out of phase!!

In practice in those situations you get into the raft how you can.

I noticed in the Sydney-Hobart race just shown again on Discovery that the sailors all jumped into the raft - it would have been suicide to go in via the sea.

As regards your judgement on my judgement - the fact that I have made mistakes of judgment does not worry me - my main mistake was in judging people and yes - a big one but then I am bery open about it - probably more open than anyone else who has made a huge cock up. So others can judge if the video and points on rafts have been entertaining or educational.

The main point I have been driving home is that there are self righting rafts out there and that anyone who thinks its simple to right an upside down raft in real sea/evacuation conditions is thinking nonsense.

It seems that in the opinion of TCM I should lay low and not express such thoughts?

A sort of serving some time before I may be allowed to cast an opinion again?

By the way - nobody at the previous purchase, discussed a few years ago, raised any relevant negative issue in a very open discussion.

So TCM did your even bigger purchase of a new boat go without major problems? Was it all perfect? Dare I say it - are all your opinions copper bottomed? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

All I have done here is show some video footage I had that I thought would be worth seeing and then banged on a bit about self righting - about 2/3rds say they will go for self righting - interesting.

Has it raised the awarness of self righting as an issue? I think it has and has therefore been a worthwhile post.
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

Yep i have made cockups and yep come clean when they don't work. And indeed so have you, fine. (incidentaly the copper was experimental, and the copper powder did work, and the failure bit only cost a few grand and not supplied by anyone muchexcept me...)

But nobody (not me either) quite bangs on about their chosen liferaft/marinething or chosen procedure eg evacuation quite like you - especially when you haven't actually used the thing?

I suggested flexibility of approach. Of course, best would be a nice clambering aboard raft, but not always,and not always possible.

"Given the panic and rubbish going on in your liferaft evacuation" - here you go again, rather rubbishing the input of others? It's an interesting thread and we had a bit of input from others but you bullied off their input a bit cos they didn't agree with your choice of raft or your evacuation procedure. There is no such thing as an open discussion in a gludy thread - if you don't agree with gludy - clear off! Or that's what it seems. Ask mjf or others if they feel the need to join in again?

Now, afaik you haven't had a real sinking/mob emergency on boat, and hence your plans are unsullied by contact. You're the skipper on your boat, no question, and all will be calm, right? Well, maybe not so alright, cos one of the crew has swmbo on board with very busted ribs so can't move without massive massive pain, and might not make it, and he's a doctor. So bollx to your orders or vhf calling or bilgepumping rota or evacuation orders, see? Who exactly is calling the shots now, hm? Not so much you, really.

Or one crew is mob and again a relative is beginning to do their own thing regardless of your nice orderley plans all carefully practised in the swimming pool.

And there is often the balancing of calling for help which might take a lot longer than it does in uk waters, fixing the problem, or evacuation. Because - *when* does one decide to give up the boatfixing, or stop calling the vhf and help fix the leak, or abandon the leakfixing and start evacuating? Me and mjf are excellent at boatfixing and we reckon that it might be better to stay on the boat, see? It is not a given that we obey your inexperienced command to get in the lovely viking liferaft. There's been a recall on them anyway and we might get this fixed quite soon, see? Flexibility, plan-changing,at some speed.

Have a look at even your (correct, approved)mayday procedure - it takes ages until you get out a position - and in real life there isn't an examiner near you - there's a fire so perhaps no power soon - so praps just say "Mayday Needles" as fast as poss, and if get a response confirm and then get those fire extinguishers going.

You mentionanothr bit of video ...but it may be easier decision-wise if there are helicopters and cameras and loadsamoney as on the sydney-hobart, bollx to boatfixing, it's all nicely insured and not our money anyway, and we'll lose the race anyway, get into liferaft, text book evacuation, and here comes the helichopter.

Or again easier decisons if bang explosion and big hole in the boat means no boatfixing really. But lots of problems are not so cut and dried.

Do not imagine that it can be invariably titanic-style (so they said...) noble calmness cos often it is not, you don't usually have two hours, you might have two minutes, so rushing about might be the order of the day and there are so many variables that a dogmatic plan such as always/never jumping into sea just cannot hold firm.


And I think others -and you- could have ideas that might be a bit better than solid pronouncements about a superb brand of liferaft...but where there has been a flippin *recall this week* for crissakes - let's hope nobody was planning to use them or out at sea where they are supposed to be, eh?! It might have been more valid to argue *against* viking than for them, realy? Although yes, the sales video is nice. There again, all the failures will have been edited out for a sales vid?...

You do seem very keen to discount the input of others, anyone who detracts from your bee-in-bonnet of the moment - traders,vikings, liferaft procedure whatever. Your interesting threads are the poorer for it.

But yes, if awareness of self-righting advantges are raised, fine.

Altho again, balance wise i believe that that the longest liferaft survivals at sea *haven't* been on self righting rafts, and people *have* righted inverted rafts at sea - much easier than righting a racing catamaran which loads of people do every weekend, so that ain't imposible either as you stated, so it's not so cut and dried, again.
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

Have to agree you have my feelings perceived well, I added a long dull bit to the effect

This is how I made my decision, might have been a bad decision but Paul you cant argue with how my decision was made.

One important factor that has not been answered and anyone making an informed choice needs to know is why Hyperlon is used ?

I guess it is due to a lack of investment and Hyperlon is easier to hand glue.
Viking hype up Hyperlon and hand glue BUT I would not feel easy in a hand glued bit of kit when Machine made heat welded are available.

Why ?

A British explosive company had an employee that wore the specified gloves but all her afternoon explosives had faulty timers, it took years to find the problem

She wore her gloves to eat her greasy beefburger lunch each day.....

Now if it took years to resolve that issue with explosives where every one is used how long would it take to find a similar fault in a liferaft seam that isnt glued properly because the new immigrant worker didnt understand the importance of solvent cleaning prior to gluing or use of freshly mixed glue ?
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

Ok TCM - now that we have established you are human /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, I will answer all your points:-

1. as regards life raft and self righting - I make no apology for what i have stated.
My views are that as many as possible should be aware of the fact they exist - the fact that there is a high probability that a non-self righting, the norm will inflate upside down and the fact that righting that upside down raft in any normal sea conditions is very difficult, often impossible and always dangerous. Does anyone disagree with that?

2. As regards evacuation procedure - which arose because someone mentioned jumping into a life raft before it had inflated and hence getting chucked into the water as it righted!, I simply responded in a fairly light hearted way. However when the point was made that you should jump into the water in order to enter a life raft - I strongly disagreed. I still do because I think it is unsound and dangerous advice.

3. as regards processes for choosing a life raft my opinion is very simple, I think there is no right or wrong - it is not up to me or anyone else to tell anyone which one to choose - that is down to them. All I would like is for them to be aware of factors such as self righting before making that choice.

4. I did not rubbish your input on evacuation - I actually agreed that in real life there can be many factors that influence how you entered the raft. My only view on this is that, if at all possible, you should avoid entering the water but I can foresee some situations when you may have to enter the water. The rubbish I referred to was rubbish in the water floating around and the general panic - you are a very sensitive person TCM - when I mention rubbish you should not instantly associate it with yourself. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

5. I have told nobody to clear off - I always want an open discussion on any thread I start but I will not hesitate to put my point if I think that the points being made are silly or dangerous. That does not mean to say I am right ....... its just a way of getting somewhere.

6. DAKA has raised some points i do not know the answer to but intend to find out - that, to me, is what a discussion is all about.

Now TCM .. please lighten up a bit, this is not doing your blood pressure any good.
Also try, just try sticking to the point and try shortening the posts, they would be better for it .... that’s my advice for the day to you
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The poll shows that over one in three readers of the threads has changed their mind and will only but a self righting raft in the future - if that leads one day to one life being saved then you can call me all you like, it was worth it.
 
Re: Hm, changing the words a bit. (not long)

all fair enough...

BUT your earlier post said "Given all the panic and rubbish going on in your life raft evacuation"...which doesn't *at all* refer obviously refer to rubbish (i.e debris) in the water. So you are just trying to gludily slip out of that one and flip it back at me being "sensitive", harumph.

If somthing saves a life then yep. But so far this week viking might have done the opposite, eh? Selling dodgy liferafts which uh-oh suddenlyy need a recall is quite a good way to kill a few people really?

In fact, everyone who uses a viking liferaft DIES. Yes! Although it's the same with any other liferaft, and same with nhs: everyone dies, so sadly we had better get used to it and have a great time before that. So perhaps not invariably spending loads of loot on a spensive thing like liferaft that might work but might not.

Anyway, all fair enough and at least you didn't do the cutting and pasting at me this time thank gawd! :-) ...
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

[ QUOTE ]
6. DAKA has raised some points i do not know the answer to but intend to find out - that, to me, is what a discussion is all about.



[/ QUOTE ]


If you are going to check up I best come clean /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I used the term Hyperlon but only by way of shortening the post as most are aware of hyperlon properties

ie/ does perish but even when new is porous so needs constant attention to pump up.

Vikings are not actually made of pukka Hyperlon, it is technically a rubber coated material.

When I used to sail our Yacht club had a hanger full of dinghies predominately Avon but nearly all Hyperlon/rubberised material but there were a few PVC.

90% of the dinghies were flat and perished, the only ones that seamed to hold air and look new were the PVC (decitex 110) ones.
This was a seasonal Yacht club and the dinghies would flatten and perish during the winter.

Glue has not got an unlimited life where heat sealed PVC will almost last forever and is not porous .
Everyone who has tried to repair a dinghy will know the importance of clean, careful glue preparation and how many of us would trust our life to the .................. worker, rubberised material is better for -10'C , these life rafts are not designed for this FORUMS audience, seago are but agree the perfect solution would be a selfrighting seago,zodiac, etc.
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

Mine didnt last longer !


Why do you think they do ?

Clue in the tittle

Hype /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


It has its uses but not best for Liferafts around UK IMHO



edit
Viking may have changed but when I looked at them, they didnt heat weld they glued.
 
Re: Hm, stepping on to liferaft (quite long)

why?

cuz we had a dinghy that was sooo old, and was still good. of course the makers of dinghys & rafts just buy in the material, from some other guys who praps back it with summat else first - so not all in the control of DuPont.

Certainly casting eyes around marinas - hypalon ones seem to keep the looks better & actually err still are being used when reely old - or so it seems.

But umm, you seem to have a bit of a beef with Hypealon eh - guess I wd too if all my hypalon dinghys went flat. Stick with pedalos.
 
Re: Hm, changing the words a bit. (not long)

TCM
You have a phobia
""Given all the panic and rubbish going on in your life raft evacuation"..."

means all the rubbish floating around in the water and all the things going wrong etc.

Viking had a third party valave reported to them as possibly failing and hence did the recall - it was over 6 months ago - my rafts were seen to last year and a free service also done at that time. They are about the largest commercial life raft people around so if they were not a reliable product there would be a fair few world wide problems.

"In fact, everyone who uses a viking liferaft DIES. Yes! Although it's the same with any other liferaft, and same with nhs: everyone dies, so sadly we had better get used to it and have a great time before that. So perhaps not invariably spending loads of loot on a spensive thing like liferaft that might work but might not. "

But you migh tas well spend it to put off the day of dying --- if you can!!!

"Anyway, all fair enough and at least you didn't do the cutting and pasting at me this time thank gawd! :-) "


Sorry for the cutting and pasting /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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