Lifejackets - Who Needs Them?

As Twister Ken....

...says. it´s not so much a question of yacht size, more of height of the rails.
Given normal heights of the lifelines, about 5-600 mm it´s easy to fall over them regardless of boatsize. OK, a small yacht will have more rapid, and unpredictable movements, but that must be balanced to the larger yachts bigger deck areas with longer distances between various handholds.

But as I have no friends with yachts over 45' it is very unlikely I ever will be invited so sail such a big yacht where the use, or not, of a lifejacket will be an issue, the question is rather academic to me.

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Re: Statistics

Well, the same Swedish report also states that more people drown falling overboard from small open boats while fishing and even people walking around in marinas, than people from boats sailing offshore.

I always have lifejackets onboard for everybody. I use one myself when I feel that weather and situation requires it, and normally when I decide to wear one, everybody on the boat has to wear them (except pretty girls in bikinis ...just kidding)...

Everyone of course may wear it whenever they please.



<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.sail.to/alacrity
 
Re: Statistics

In NZ about the same number of people drown from non water sports happenings or activities, such as in cars, crossing streams when hiking, "Eccles" events (He's fallen in the water!"), etc than do from all water sports including swimming, etc.

Of the whole of the water sports drownings, only a very small percentage are drownings from decked pleasure yachts and virtually nil from decked pleasure power boats (in fact if the statistics are correct for very small frequencies, then there have been no drownings from decked pleasure power boats in the last 20 years, but I suspect they may have missed one or two). Small open vessels comprise the vast majority of ex boat drownings here, plus a contribution from commercial activities such as fishing.

I would not expect the percentages to be skewed towards more watersports drownings in other countries, in fact I would expect in other countries that there would be a greater percentage of non watersports drownings because of the (supposedly) high take up of water sports here.

John

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Re: And/or Harnesses?

The kids (way back now) wore harnesses on board when on deck. When very very young they were clipped to the boom in harbour on limited movement length lines. In the dinghy and ashore on pontoons they wore lifejackets. There was never any question of 'why should we wear them when you don't', in those days parents were not challenged thus by the ultra young and when they were older and could swim, fair enough they didn't wear them if we weren't. They were brought up on boats though and sailed from around 3 wks old. If our youngest grandkids from the USA came on board, who have never been near a boat and do not listen to sense and reason, it would be different and they WOULD be required to wear harnesses and lifejackets - if I didn't lash them to the mast!/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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Yes, that's my approach too. I'm not slavish about wearing a lifejacket, but with modern designs it is really no trouble. I suspect that more overboard incidents occur when someone is off-guard, than are caused by heavy weather.

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Dingies
As from this year, always in the dingy to/from the mooring. Last year, I went involuntarily swimming in The Dart at Dartmouth when I missed my footing jumping into the dingy. It was in October when the sea was at its warmest and it brought me up short. Fortunately, it was during the day and at slack water but it still took me the best part of 10 minutes to find somewhere to get out of the water and I am a confident swimmer. I don't even want to think about the consequences of the doing the same in February with a fast running tide at night. So, as from 2 week time when we are afloat again lifejackets will be worn.

On deck on yacht
I think that I'm coming round to the view that ljs/harnesses will be worn at all times when on deck as well. The reasoning being that if it is standard practice then there is no decision to be made, they are on all of the time. Like an earlier poster, I'm sure that it is the unexpected that will catch me out rather than foul conditions. I say this against a backdrop of my laughing at crews in ljs on warm days arriving/departing a calm marina. I guess like a previous poster, I no longer beleive that I am immortal and I have lots of things to want to stay afloat for.

Chris

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I read a statistic once, that more than half the dead yotties are recovered with their flies undone. How many of us lean against the leeward shrouds making golden rain?

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
 
Re: Statistics

I agree with Gunnar. In fact I think a vast majority of Swedes do use lifejackets when under way. In our case, we also only use lifejackets with integrated harnesses and I must admit that I never feel very encumbered by them.

As for size, I normally go by crew rather than size. I there is a professional (paid) crew, then I don't wear one under the assumption that a) they will be able to pick me up and b) they will keep an eye on passengers doing potentially risky things.

I know that's not always the case but it works for me.

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Re:I do!

Who wears them? Everyone who sails with me skippering.

When? While on deck from the outset of a cruise or day sail or until l get asked if they can be removed. ( very rare thing while underway) If I'm asked I can judge the real situation and make a decision not a guesstemate.

Why? Because I have a better time and no one seems to mind. There's no great discomfort to wearing a modern lifejacket. The harness is built in. If it blows up suddenly most of your crew vanish to get their LJ's just when you need them. Some crew find going below and looking for a LJ makes them spew.

If below the crew should be able to find and don their LJ within 2 minutes.

To me, not using the things is dopey. When I was a brave racing man I wouldn't have been caught dead wearing one but times change. Why not wear one? You paid for it, it's not uncomfortable and as someone else has posted people fall off boats on the calmest days. Of course if it's a ruffty tuffty sailor thing then clearly I ain't one.


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I was told on my day skipper course that more lives are lost during the relatively short dinghy journey to the boat, than are lost at sea so I always insist on lifejackets in the dinghy. I am especially keen on life jackets and harnesses at night as one slip and you could be over the side and you would be out of sight within two seconds, always assuming someone saw you go over in the first place.

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Re: Why

When I was a yacht owner, everyone wore a PFD type 1, Inflatable lifejacket, when I said so, or when they wanted to wear them.

The above have an integrated safety harness in a slim, unobtrusive, folded design.. Before we had them, we only used the harness and a Lifejacket when required, no matter what size yacht. I remember one rough night out in Bass Strait, when I woke all watches, got them on deck in full safety gear, because we were sailing in an area where “rocks” were notorious for appearing.. plus it was the darkest of darkest nights and a bit scary.

Now most Aussies of my age group, could swim before they walked, so the water is not a problem for us, however recent arrivals have a different slant on water.. a very close friend (from Scotland) won’t even go exploring in the dinghy without a PFD1.. I don’t have a problem with this, it’s his choice.

However I only mentioned this to say John, size of yacht does not matter, conditions do. Personal comfort does, and “feeling”safe is important .

Why did you ask the question ?????
BrianJ


<hr width=100% size=1>BrianJ
 
This may be getting boring, but I too will wade in on the side of those who wear lefjackets whenever under way.

Decision largely dates from days of singlehanded sailing - the thought of the boat sailing off without me was too unpleasant to contemplate, so wore harness whenever the boat was moving fast enough to leave me behind if I fell off! And I have a combined harness and lifejacket, so that was the lifejacket too.

Since then I now generally sail with wife and two children, but the old habits die hard, I'm still sometimes the only one on deck, and it seems only reasonable to do as I would insist my children do.

As to the size limit of boat above which this would not apply, I'm with the people who've commented that its not size so much as the presence of other competent people to return and pick me up, plus what I'm going to be doing - I've been on pretty small ferries without lifejackets, but never one where I've been expected to stand on the cabin roof stowing the mainsail in a bit of a swell!

If in any doubt about the issue, I just picture myself in the water with the boat receding from me. Would I rather be wearing a lifejacket or would I be pleased that I wasn't? I've never had any difficulty deciding what my own feelings would be in that situation, so always wear the jacket.

Having said all that, I'm a firm believer that if you want to put yourself at risk on your own boat you've a perfect right to. But if on my boat, I'd find picking you up after a man-overboard significantly less stressful if I knew you were wearing a lifejacket, so out of courtesy to me I'm sure you'd wear one (!).

Cheers
Patrick

<hr width=100% size=1>Sailing a Victoire 25 on the Scottish West Coast
 
Re: Why

Why did I ask the question?

Well out of general interest. I make no specific comment on what people wish to do but I think that they greatly overestimate the risks for adults. To sail a keelboat greater than 20 foot around a sheltered harbour worried that one is going to fall overboard and drown does seem to me to be a bigger dampener on ones enjoyment of sailing than actually going over the side and getting damp.

The proportion of larger boat yachtsmen here, say over 30 foot, who regularly wear lifejackets except in heavy weather is very low (I actually cannot remember ever seeing one) but the number of yachtsmen who drown off such boats here is a very minute fraction of all drownings which infers that lifejackets should be worn much more importantly by others (for example here, as someone has said in another post applies in UK, far more drown from cars than do from decked yachts). Far more are killed in private aircraft crashes here than drown off decked yachts - should everyone wear a parachute when they do a routine flight in a private aircraft?

In the end, from the thread, some seem so adament about wearing lifejackets all the time that I guess they would wear them on the Queen Mary as they seemed reluctant to nominate an upper size to the vessel they would stop wearing them on. Again, I reiterate, all to their own and thanks to all for all views.

For the sake of interest, if anyone wonders what I do, it is almost exactly the same as Robin sets out in his post on the matter (in fact uncannily so) and I was similarly was brought up in close association with small boats and the sea. I am not reckless, but I take the view that if one is continually worried about getting kicked by a horse, then one should not ride them.

John

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Re: Why

Recently found a old copy of PBO, early 1990, no lifejacket in sight on any picture.

What would be interesting is a trawl through old mags to see trend, for life jackets.

Brian



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More

It's difficult nowadays to talk about lifejackets without implying harnesses as well. Most LJs sold have integral harnesses, so anywhen you might want to wear a harness, by default you wear an LJ. My preference would always be to stay on the boat (harness) rather than float once I'd fallen in (LJ).

And then when did people start wearing them more frequently - maybe when the 'fold-flat' ones became commonplace? After all, in the conditions when you might want to wear them, they are as convenient to wear as an oilie jacket.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
 
Re: Why

Interesting answer, and I'm particularly struck by the fact that it is those who sail on bigger boats who seem to wear lifejackets the least. And that does seem to make some sense - Robin's comment that he rarely leaves the cockpit on his current 41 footer I understand, but is a significantly different experience from my own sailing on a 25 footer with nothing led back to the cockpit and hank on jibs...

However, I was struck by the comment:
"To sail a keelboat greater than 20 foot around a sheltered harbour worried that one is going to fall overboard and drown does seem to me to be a bigger dampener on ones enjoyment of sailing than actually going over the side and getting damp."
I think this can be read either way - I'd see it as a comment for wearing lifejackets / harnesses. The reason I wear one is so that I can indeed sail unworried about falling over and drowning. If I don't wear one, on the other hand, then the dire consequenses (and to call it "getting damp" does belittle it rather) of slipping over the guardwires are always at the forefront of my mind and detract from the enjoyment of sailing.

Cheers
Patrick

<hr width=100% size=1>Sailing a Victoire 25 on the Scottish West Coast
 
I very seldom ware a life jacket, it’s more to do with the conditions than the size of boat. I ware a harness when I venture forward of the cockpit. In inclement or rough conditions I don a one piece Flotation Suit which I feel very snug in /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
I don’t ware a LJ on the river going to / from the boat in the dingy, but when I kept a boat in Portland Harbour and had to row out the 200 mtrs in >F5 I would put a LJ on, I even put on a dry suit once or twice!


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Re: Why

Hi John,
Interesting here in OZ, every time there is a " boating " accident, irrespective as to the outcome, the press always comment " he/ she wasn't wearing a life jacket at the time"... I think they assume we all should have life jackets on ,even in the bar .
Cheers... BrianJ

<hr width=100% size=1>BrianJ
 
Re: Why

Same here too Brian.

I do two sets of acceptance trials on 76 foot new powerboats in Australia in a couple of months - am going to turn up wearing my inflatable lifejacket seeing you said peep's always wear them over there /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

Pass briefly through Melbourne airport on way to Hobart again this Sunday evening - hope it is still warm over there.

Regards

John

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