Lifejackets - Who Needs Them?

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MainlySteam

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From various threads it is apparant that some believe that lifejackets should be worn all the time when on board. However, I assume that these same people would not wear a lifejacket when on the deck of a cruise ship (but who knows? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif).

I am interested in forumite's views as to on what sized vessel they consider lifejackets are no longer neccessary to be worn all of the time. Sea conditions may affect this, of course.

If one considers lifejackets should be worn "all the time", does this mean down below, in the bunk, etc ie what are the bounds for having to wear them?

Thanks

John



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As far as I'm concerned neither I nor my kids wear jackets on board any boat unless conditions dictate. For the dinghy, that's in a strong breeze, or at night in any conditions. Pretty much the same for the mother ship.

I have slept in a lifejacket once. Thick fog, Cowes / St. Malo race, spinnaker reaching at 7+, coming down to the Minquies and the Decca traffic lights went to red. We were pretty sure where we were, but...

<hr width=100% size=1>the above is complete rubbish, probably.
 
As far as I'm concerned when sailing with the family it's lifejackets worn at all times on deck. I tend to wear one pretty much most of the time anyway, but insist on crew wearing them when I feel conditions/visibility make it prudent (even off watch crew in fog, although I've never been unfortunate enough to have to make that call). Oh yes, at all times when winter sailing, as the shock of the water temperature could well incapacitate the casualty.

I don't know about anyone else, but I seem to come closest to going over the side in flat calm conditions, probably motoring down river doing some simple task like rigging or stowing fenders. Not a life threatening situation, but a bump on the head as you go could make it very different.

<hr width=100% size=1>Bring me that horizon.
 
When at work and out for a run in the work boat/fast rescue craft, it is company policy that all aboard wear PFDs but as soon as we are out of binocular range from the bridge of our mother ship. Most crew will remove theses and go into sun bathing mode. If I’m coxswain at the time, I have no objection to this. We work exclusively in tropical waters and although we may be as much as 300 miles offshore always have a back up vessel within 45 minutes of our position. When coming alongside or practicing any potentially hazardous procedures, then yes, all hands will have their PDFs on.
When leisure sailing it is my view that all children should be wearing one but unless conditions are getting particularly nasty adults should not be compelled to wear them.
It should be a matter for the individual to draw his own line. For myself, I take into account the water temperature and make a judgment as to how likely it is that the boat I’m in (bearing in mind what we are doing) is going to deposit me into the drink. And if I think to myself, hang on –this could get a little lively, I’ll put one on. The majority of time I don’t wear them because I find them cumbersome.


<hr width=100% size=1>No boat.
 
General rules on my boat are based on this. When sailing in reasonable conditions, in daylight, say up to force 4 maybe 5 nobody has to wear either lifejacket or a harness, in the cockpit. If its necessary to leave the cocpit then a harness is worn. On my boat harnesses & lifejackets are combined. Being clipped on is a priority.

In the hours of darkness harnesses & lifejackets are worn & at other times, if I say so they are worn. The only other occaision when it is ok to wear them is if the wearer wants to. Then any time is ok.

Martin

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I've always seen lifejackets as those smelly things in a cockpit locker, and I think I only put a lifejacket on once, just before going through the Alderney race the first time. It was a bit of an anti-climax.

I've always seen harnesses as the important bit of kit, to be worn when it's rough, or any time at night. I now have a harness/lifejacket combined because they are so easy to wear, but I've already found out that the lifejacket didn't inflate when I went for a swim.

Tropical or artic, if I go overboard I want to be on the end of a short rope, not floating about.

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one of the trainers I sailed with at BOSS had his jacket permanently mounted on his foul weather jacket and maintained that if his oilies jacket was needed anytime then it was probably a good time to also have the life jacket on - if the weather was fine and he wasn't going to get wet his logic ran that he didn't need the life jacket. Seemed pretty sensible to me.

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But everyone advocating wearing lifejackets, up to what sized boat does your view apply to - wear them on a 100,000 tonne cruise ship, a 200 foot big superyacht, 100 foot little superyacht, 60 foot yacht, 40 foot yacht, 8 foot dinghy, etc? That is, when is a yacht big enough to not need the wearing of lifejackets all the time, some of the time?

John

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IF, there is more blue in the sky than you can successfully cover up using both hands at arms length.
AND, The boat you are in is longer than twelve feet, seven and three quarter inches long.
Never wear one.
Otherwise, always wear one.

Does that help?


I'll get my coat...


<hr width=100% size=1>No boat.
 
Obviuosly, the bigger the boat the more important it is to wear a lifejacket.

If you were to fall overboard from a cruise ship or similar, the chances of being noticed are slim to non existent. If, on the other hand, you fall overboard from a crewed yacht you are almost certain to be missed (unles you have personal hygiene issues) and as such a lifejacket is largely irrelevant.

My old man always maintained that lifejackets were only a means of ensuring you died slowly from exposure, raher than quickly from drowning - a view fairly widely held amongst professional seamen.

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On my boat, all children and non swimmers wear lifejackets. If it gets windy, after dark or if I say so I insist on harnesses being worn and being clipped on. If reefing or other manouvre when it's blowing a bit I wear a harness. I prefer a harness at the moment as I have seperate harnesses and lifejackets. In the dinghy and if it's blowing I will wear an auto lifejacket. All visitors on board are briefed on safety, & given a lifejacket which they can wear if they want to.

<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... :-) /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 
And/or Harnesses?

It is a question of confidence perhaps as well as size of boat and circumstances, and some will wear a harness but not a lifejacket.

Certainly wouldn't think of wearing a lifejacket on a cross channel ferry, local harbour ferry even one of the small ferries running between say Guernsey and Herm/Sark. In Venice do people wear them in gondolas? We have a local 'disco-boat in the harbour with all the party animals on board (and on deck), I might feel they would be safer with lifejackets on....

I probably set a bad example as usual. I wore a buoyancy aid when dinghy racing in winter or if very windy anytime. When I moved to small cruisers I was more concerned with staying on board so wore a harness in preference to a lifejacket if I felt vunerable, changing headsails, reefing etc. As my boats grew in size that did not change but the number of times wearing a harness reduced because the platform was much more stable. Our Elizabethan 30 was the last that had a full suit of headsails and when replaced with a Westerly 33 (big solid centre cockpit) we went to a roller headsail system, foredeck work in heavy weather was no longer necessary. The versatility of the W33's ketch rig meant that trips on deck in bad weather were few so harness use was infrequent. Our current 41ft has all the reefing back in a very protected cockpit and in two years and some 4,000mls including one downwind run cross-channel in F7-8 we have not worn even the harnesses. ( we didn't need the wet weather gear either so the RORC rule of lifejackets and harness being worn if these are needed didn't apply!).

We do have the very latest combined lifejackets and harnesses on board, fully automatic, with lights and crotch straps. The last time they were worn was when we adjusted them for size the day we bought them, they are stowed carefully in the dry and easily accessible near the companionway. We bought these when we changed our wet gear for a type without built in harnesses. We do also carry spare lifejackets and harnesses for any guests we might have, up to 6 total.

We did have a sailboard on board for a while and carried buoyancy aids to wear when using this, mostly as a sort of body armour to minimise bruising. These were left on board for possible use when sailing our Tinker (sailboard replacement toy) but never used and now the Tinker is for sale (PM me for details.....)/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

We have no specific rules on board (bear in mind we rarely if ever have guests on board), just put on whatever you feel comfortable with. At night we do have an understanding not to go on deck with no one in the cockpit watching, but since going on deck is not needed (reefing lines to cockpit, roller genoa) that is not normally an issue. If there were a risk of being run down in fog then we may bring the lifejackets up on deck, the grab bag and flares are always kept in a cockpit locker and the liferaft is ready to launch from it's pushpit cradle.

Regulation is not the answer IMHO, this is personal choice. Just look at the latest pics of Ellen on B&Q! If you fear litigation, or the incredulous 'no one on board was wearing lifejackets' report on the news or if you feel more secure then by all means wear what you will when you wish to.




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Statistics

In Sweden, yearly statistics are published over people falling overboard and drowning from leisure craft. I cannot remember the number of casualties, but every year it´s the same story, 100%, or very, very close to 100% of these casualties were NOT wearing any sort of lifejacket.
I think this fact speaks for itself.
Other conclusions are, a majority of these people fell in to the water in what could be considered as good conditions, and a vaste amount of the male casualties were found with their fly open...

In my opinion, this reflects the reality, so onboard my boat, as soon we are under way, regardless of weather and age, lifejackets should be used on deck or in cockpit. And as soon as the weather gets rough or in dark hours and the risk falling overboard increases a harness should be worn, clipped to the jackstays or other strongpoints.

In my opinion all talk not using lifejackets on yachts is some sort of male-macho-rubbish.




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Re: Statistics

Statistically more people drown in their cars than in boats, time to swap the seatbelt for a lifejacket?/forums/images/icons/smile.gif just joking. Statistics will also probably not differentiate between sailing dinghies, canoes, etc and bigger yachts. The question though was at what size do you consider it NOT neccessary?

No criticism implied this is very much a personal choice thing IMHO.

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Re: Statistics

Hi Gunnar - Would you think the same for the crew on a bigger yacht, say 80 foot, for example?

Not trying to test anyone, I am just genuinely interested in getting a picture of peoples' views and practices.

I will be away for a few days from tommorrow, but am looking forward to more responses from all.

Thanks for the comments so far

John

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As to size

Not that I've even been on a 100 foot mini-super yacht, but I'd suggest the critical thing is not the size or displacement of the vessel, but the height of the lifelines or bulwarks. Every yacht I've sailed has had lifelines at 'trip-you-behind-the-knees-and-tip-you-over' height and I'm very happy to clip on whenever moving about the deck of such a boat at sea if the circumstances look at all dangerous (yes, that's a judgement call on my part). And as my harness is also a lifejacket...

OTOH all the ships I've been aboard have got steel walls or rails of at least waist height, and often a little higher, and neither are they likely to roll through 30 degrees. So the lifejackets have stayed in their hideyholes.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
 
In foul weather - If you are in a boat that might capsize, e.g. a dinghy, wear a life jacket. If in a boat that is unlikely to capsize wear a harness.
In fine weather - no life jacket, no harness makes it much easier to move safely around the boat. Be careful not to fall in, how hard is that?

All IMHO of course.

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We sail an elderly gaff cutter (plus point - wide side and fore decks with six inch bulwarks, negative point - no lifelines) as a family - self, wife, 9 and 2 year old boys.

We carry a 9ft stem dinghy on deck and an Avon, and get to and from our swinging mooring in a 16ft launch.

In the launch - no lifejackets - the boat has positive bouyancy, and will float if swamped, remaining upright. We do have a rule about oars as well as engine.

In the dinghy - lifejackets at all times, regardless of conditions. Whilst the dinghy also has positive bouyancy, it may not float upright.

On the boat - children on deck to wear harness and lifejackets at all times. They do go over, and so far they have been fished out. Grown ups wear lifejackets and harnesses before crossing the bar and at almost all times at sea, but not in rivers. However, in a strong calm in warm weather, it is silly to expect people to sunbathe in a lifejacket, so that is when the rule is relaxed.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
The best, but not always the most convenient course of action. (as adopted by most commercial company's) involves carrying out risk assessment. This risk assesment will include meterological conditions, number of crew on board, type of activity being performed, ability of crew members, experience of crew members etc... This risk assesment will be influenced by the experience and training of the Captain or person doing the assessing. and, after consulting with another person all potential hazards are identified. Its then a case of determining the probability of said hazards occurring then taking corrective action.
Most of us will do this in our heads, quietly thinking to ourselves "right, the winds picking up, i'm the only one out on deck...better put a lifejacket on" for example.
But as mentioned before, one of the biggest factors which influences risk assessment is the experience or training of the person doing the assessing. This is possibly the bigest reason going for mandatory training of leisure boaters.
I believe the decision to 'force' people to don the lifejackets should rest firmly with the captain or whoever is in command of the boat. It is this person who SHOULD be experienced enough and trained enough to risk assess the situation and make a decision acordingly.
Most companies i have worked for have, in the last 3-4 years, adopted a system of risk assessment. Some general 'blanket' rules still apply ie:mandatory to wear l/jacket when working overside of vessel or working in lifeboat/rescue boat....basically the risk assessment has been pre-done and the outcome always found to be too much of a hazard. Otherwise every job is assessed on an individual basis.
I realise that, if i havent borred everyone to death already, that i'm probably opening up a can of worms here but Unfortunately in the 'blame culture' we live in today, risk assessment is becoming more and more common.
Its a sad reality that in the commercial marine sector (and shore side industry), its gettting a bit like a 'paint by numbers' scenario where, no matter how long you have trained for, how many years you have spent at uni or college, how many certificates/qualifications you have aquired, how many years you have spent at sea.....you are required to fill in a check list or risk assess the job you are doing (and sign it with your name) in order to do just about anything.
I therefore remain sceptical as to how long pleasure boat insurance companies will allow us to remain 'check-list' and 'risk assessment' free. (not to mention mandatory certification free also)
Simon
P.S. it would be nice to hear from an insurance point of view....are there clauses in some policies to require mandatory wearing of lifejackets?..........Mine does'nt....YET!


<hr width=100% size=1>I'v got 2 ears.2 eyes and 1 mouth....if only i could use them in that proportion!
 
Re: And/or Harnesses?

I used to be like Robin, and many others, lifejacket worn only when the weather was really kicking up rough.

However, now I often sail with my 2-year old daughter, and friends with a 3-year old son. They must wear lifejackets (as many people have said here) and so I think I must too.

they are already old enough to ask the question 'if you don't, why should I?' and I'm trying never to answer such questions with 'just because, allright'

and on the ever so slim chance I do get swiped overboard by the boom or whatever, I've got a lot more reasons to try to come back safely than I did when I was young free and single...


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