Lifejackets: lifesavers? Or not?

[Scubadoo]

Interesting post Timbarlett.

Best to be safe and wear a LJ.

While on the Solent during Cowes Weeks, one thing I did notice was all those yachts racing I didn't see one LJ, it was only the odd non-racing yachts - why is that? And watching a BBC news of a reporter on one of those yachts he too was not wearing a LJ.

Personnally I think this gives the wrong message, If your racing you don't need a LJ - crazy.

 

[Solitaire]

You lot can do what you like, your funeral.

My family and I will always wear our life jackets when on the boat.

Very responsible attitude. I always wear one, I feel the same about not having an LJ on as I do about driving down the road without a seatbelt. It just does not feel right.

 

[benjenbav]

Very responsible attitude. I always wear one, I feel the same about not having an LJ on as I do about driving down the road without a seatbelt. It just does not feel right.

I wear one except when docking. There, for me, it doesn't feel right. Maybe because of worrying about catching a strap on something when moving about to help with lines. I dunno.

 

[gjgm]

No, I don't think you will find anything meaningful in trying to relate annual statistics of deaths to changes in equipment etc. You could read reports of incidents 15 years ago that could just as easily happen today. For example there is no published evidence that EPIRBs and PLBs have resulted in lives being saved that might have been lost. Despite the huge increase in the number of liferafts sold (a consequence of a typical 50-60% fall in real price) has had no specific impact on foundering incidents, nor lives saved or lost.

As I said there are so few deaths through drowning related to boating and there is very little pattern except the circumstances leading to the deaths.

If you did want to try and explain any changes over time you would have to make so many adjustments for other key variables such as level of activity and weather patterns that the results would be meaningless.

Drowning incidents are rare and random over time. Immersions that do not lead to death are also random, but not rare. However, there is no reliable source of data because there is no obligation to report.

The very low level of deaths is I think the consequence of people being much more aware of the dangers and taking the necessary avoiding action plus our superb rescue services for when things go wrong.

I agree that when the numbers are low less meaningful conclusions can be drawn. However, it doesnt follow that the most meaningful data can be extracted from the longest set, ie 15 years. It could (could, note) be that the most meaningful data is the last few years because it now relates to how people now boat. I am not saying that is the case, I am merely pointing out that you chose to use the 15 year data because 15 years is available.
Moving on; do people take more risks when wearing a lifejacket, because the feel safer, I wonder?

 

[ricky_s]

Moving on; do people take more risks when wearing a lifejacket, because the feel safer, I wonder?

I doubt it, it may just remind them they are wearing it because they are potentially in a dangerous position.

 

[RIB_imposter]

Moving on; do people take more risks when wearing a lifejacket, because the feel safer, I wonder?

I suspect that to some extent they will, subconsciously. The phenomenon is reported amongst drivers (with seat belts) and cyclists (with helmets). I believe economists refer to it as Moral Hazard.

Despite all the heat generated about lifejackets and the RYA/RNLI/MCA advertising campaign, there doesn't seem to be a lot of hard evidence on offer. And as one of those who gets pretty p155ed off by simplistic comments such as "a lifejacket would have saved his life", I thought I'd look into it.

Tim, where are you see such comments? I've never notices them in RYA/RNLI/MCA advertising - only the suggestion that your chance of survival increases, which "your" data supports. I do sometimes see some glib comment on a CG press release saying "we remind boaters to wear a lifejacket" or "the victim was not wearing a lifejacket" - sometimes implying that this contributed to the death - but I've never seen an explicit statement that someone WOULD have been saved if only...

Given that if the Daily Mail reports that using blue ball point pens increases your chance of cancer by 3% there will be a significant change in behaviour - then it doesn't seem unreasonable that "doubling your chances of survival" should be good enough to justify a campaign.

For example there is no published evidence that EPIRBs and PLBs have resulted in lives being saved that might have been lost.

what do you mean by "published evidence" - I can find you several reports where it was the primary or only method of summonsing help, and probably saved lives. Clearly a double blind trial is not feasible / ethical - but I'd take some convincing that there is no evidence that these have not saved lives.

This is a somewhat selective quote. Since the life jacket failed to inflate, it is equivalent to not having a life jacket on in the first place.

actually the MAIB don't say it failed to inflate (and had that been the case it would have warranted discussion on the reasons). They say he did not inflate it - that is somewhat different, and might screw up Tim's stats - how many of the dead PLB wearers were wearing LJ's that the victim had for some reason (either incapacity or failure to realise the risk) not inflated it.

 

[piratos]

A lifejacket is not just abt saving life. It makes quite a difference to the family if the (dead) body is found or not, so it makes sence to use the device even in cold water where your time in the water is very limited after all.

 

[Tranona]

what do you mean by "published evidence" - I can find you several reports where it was the primary or only method of summonsing help, and probably saved lives. Clearly a double blind trial is not feasible / ethical - but I'd take some convincing that there is no evidence that these have not saved lives.

.

I would be interested in your sources and the nature of the "reports". I am sure there have been cases - the recent abandonment of a Moody 376 in the Atlantic was one. The technology is clearly superior to other forms of calling for assistance, but what would be useful would be annual "statistics" of the number of times EPIRBs and PLBs are activated and the circumstances. I know that false alarms have been publicised, but this is kind of negative.

 

[fireball]

Fix the cause? By stopping all accidents? How, exactly?

You only need a lifejacket when you're in the water ... so, to fix the cause, you ensure you don't end up in the water (or reduce the risk significantly).

You can do this by sitting under a tree, or perhaps by clipping on.

 

[benjenbav]

ensure you don't end up in the water (or reduce the risk significantly).

You can do this by sitting under a tree,

Even that doesn't always work, though. As documented by the bard, in the case of Hamlet's poor Ophelia:

"There is a willow grows aslant a brook,
That shows his hoar leaves in the glassy stream;
There with fantastic garlands did she come
Of crow-flowers, nettles, daisies, and long purples
That liberal shepherds give a grosser name,
But our cold maids do dead men's fingers call them:
There, on the pendent boughs her coronet weeds
Clambering to hang, an envious sliver broke;
When down her weedy trophies and herself
Fell in the weeping brook. Her clothes spread wide;
And, mermaid-like, awhile they bore her up:
Which time she chanted snatches of old tunes;
As one incapable of her own distress,
Or like a creature native and indued
Unto that element: but long it could not be
Till that her garments, heavy with their drink,
Pull'd the poor wretch from her melodious lay
To muddy death."

 

[dt4134]

While on the Solent during Cowes Weeks, one thing I did notice was all those yachts racing I didn't see one LJ, it was only the odd non-racing yachts - why is that? And watching a BBC news of a reporter on one of those yachts he too was not wearing a LJ.

Personnally I think this gives the wrong message, If your racing you don't need a LJ - crazy.

I guess you've never raced. Lifejackets are an encumbrance, especially when hiking, and are much more likely to go off prematurely. I have a row of empty LJ cylinders on my window sill. It is not that uncommon for a lifejacket wearer to get entangled in the guardwires. That's why you'll find many race crew reluctant to wear lifejackets.

The race committee can always override the skipper's judgement by flying the Yankee flag, which means it a boat with a crew member on deck without a LJ can be protested and disqualified.

I've also often seen race crew remove the salt tablet to convert an automatic to a manual lifejacket, even done it myself sometimes. After all it is safer to stay on board with a manual jacket than to be washed overboard because your lifejacket has inflated prematurely. Even with a manual LJ you have to make sure the toggle is tucked up well inside the LJ.

Race crew have generally thought about the risks and have made their decisions based upon that.

 

[Dyflin]

/thread

 

[Solitaire]

/thread

I shouldn't laugh - but that is brilliant!

 

[Scubadoo]

I guess you've never raced. Lifejackets are an encumbrance, especially when hiking, and are much more likely to go off prematurely. I have a row of empty LJ cylinders on my window sill. It is not that uncommon for a lifejacket wearer to get entangled in the guardwires. That's why you'll find many race crew reluctant to wear lifejackets.

The race committee can always override the skipper's judgement by flying the Yankee flag, which means it a boat with a crew member on deck without a LJ can be protested and disqualified.

I've also often seen race crew remove the salt tablet to convert an automatic to a manual lifejacket, even done it myself sometimes. After all it is safer to stay on board with a manual jacket than to be washed overboard because your lifejacket has inflated prematurely. Even with a manual LJ you have to make sure the toggle is tucked up well inside the LJ.

Race crew have generally thought about the risks and have made their decisions based upon that.

Nope never raced before but I have sailed, you make a fair point but that doesn't explain people like the BBC reporter not wearing one. On my boat my LJ is a manual one, I won't have an auto LJ, but anyone else on my boat have the auto LJs.

 

[dt4134]

Nope never raced before but I have sailed, you make a fair point but that doesn't explain people like the BBC reporter not wearing one. On my boat my LJ is a manual one, I won't have an auto LJ, but anyone else on my boat have the auto LJs.

Interesting point about the BBC reporter (and other novice crew). Inexperienced crew are the more likely to get tangled up on the guardwires during a tack or accidentally inflate their lifejackets, but of course they are less likely to be able to look after themselves.

Anyway, I'm just trying to get across why you'll often see racers not wearing lifejackets. In the end it is probably safer to fall off at Cowes Week with a large number of well crewed boats nearby than to go overboard when cruising with no one around for miles and only one or two inexperienced crew left one board.

I wear an auto LJ most of the time when cruising.

 

[oceanfroggie]

A senior RYA examiner once asked me what my PFD was for, I gave my stock answer, he replied, "no statictically they are used to keep dead bodies afloat"

"Don't end up in the water, cause floating is no guarantee you'll live."

His point was don't feel invincible just because of safety gear, instead avoid getting into trouble in the first place with the right attitude, then there should be little need for the gear (ie my pfd, flares, plb, raft, epirb, grab bag, etc).

 

[dt4134]

Question for the statisticians:

How much riskier is it to sail on a yacht without a lifejacket than to fly on a commercial airliner without a parachute?

 

[Searush]

(snip). And why dinghys and pontoons.. is that a combined figure, or you mean the top two causes of death?
Can it be right that dinghy sailing is the most lethal form of boating?
Wasnt there some nonsense a while back about safety at sea stats where the figures were distorted by deaths from people driving cars into rivers ! Probably not wearing LJs there either.

The majority of dinghy drownings will be from tenders & people in little boats fishing - from what I've read in papers & RNLI reports. Few seem to die when sailing dinghies.

When UK drowning statistics are quoted, read them carefully, the vast majority are inland drownings, in canals, quarries & lakes etc

 

[Harry25]

Just arrived by email

http://www.rya.org.uk/interests/cru...UpToSpeed&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=aug10

 

[RIB_imposter]

I would be interested in your sources and the nature of the "reports". I am sure there have been cases - the recent abandonment of a Moody 376 in the Atlantic was one. The technology is clearly superior to other forms of calling for assistance, but what would be useful would be annual "statistics" of the number of times EPIRBs and PLBs are activated and the circumstances. I know that false alarms have been publicised, but this is kind of negative.

Tranona, well there are various reports here: http://www.mcmurdo.co.uk/news/rescues_and_testimonials.html which are obviously in favour of EPIRBs being posted by McMurdo - I've not appraised them all myself so it may be that the role of the EPIRB was exagerated. However there are others either in the press or the MCGA press releases which convince me that these have saved lives. Here are some examples where it has contributed: http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07...s-releases.htm?id=8779B5EA2E004DCC&m=1&y=2008 and http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/press-releases?id=DAC363A13F4E2F9B this might also be of interest: http://www.maritimesafetynews.com/?p=19

I don't have time to go through finding specific cases where the EPIRB was definitely the defining feature when you yourself have cited one such cases conceding that your original point that there are "no reports" is wrong. It seems you are looking for an "overview report" - the absense of such a report (when actually no such report exists for flares, vhf, lifejacket etc) hardly suggests that they are inneffective or unnecessary. Indeed such data might be more available for EPIRBs as they are "processed centrally" - e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cospas-Sarsat#Rescue_statistics which suggests if you've got the time you might read http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/DocumentsSystemDataDocument/SD33-DEC07_ENG.pdf