Lifeboats .... Again

Erbas said:
you've got to chuckle when Sybarite manages to twist a negative point about the French lifeboat service into a veiled criticism of the RNLI!
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My original point was that ostensibly the RnLI were spending nearly three times more per boat than the nearest French equivalent. It was explained that the essential difference was the cost of jet propulsion. I reported one SNSM's skipper's opinion namely that a lot of grit is swept up into the turbines, both by the turbulence of shallow water as well as the action of the turbines themselves.

I would be interested to know why a different/ more expensive make of jet gets round this basic point.

I'm sure that the RNLI with their structure will have worked this one through but I would be happy if somebody could give me their basic reasoning ie to confirm that they will not experience with their jets the apparent problem experienced by the French, who would appear to have a longer operational experience in the area, something I had not known.
 
Sybarite said:
Does it? When you put more into reserves than your net spend on boats? RNLI 2012 accounts.
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<Sigh> Like many UK charities the RNLI is nervously eyeing a future where one of their most significant sources of major funding, legacies, is in rapid decline

A decade ago or more, the Charities Commission was actively pushing charities to draw down their long term reserves and spend income rather than invest it

Now, that attitude has (largely) gone into reverse and prudent charity trustees are looking to build and the maintain investment portfolios (which is where the reserves are held) to generate sufficient income to meet the day to day running costs of the charity

Building reserves is a good thing. Furthermore, if you're going to build a reserve to cover the operation, maintenance and eventual replacement of a depreciating asset you're going to have to invest significantly more in the reserve than the initial outlay on the asset.
 
Erbas said:
<Sigh> Like many UK charities the RNLI is nervously eyeing a future where one of their most significant sources of major funding, legacies, is in rapid decline

A decade ago or more, the Charities Commission was actively pushing charities to draw down their long term reserves and spend income rather than invest it

Now, that attitude has (largely) gone into reverse and prudent charity trustees are looking to build and the maintain investment portfolios (which is where the reserves are held) to generate sufficient income to meet the day to day running costs of the charity

Building reserves is a good thing. Furthermore, if you're going to build a reserve to cover the operation, maintenance and eventual replacement of a depreciating asset you're going to have to invest significantly more in the reserve than the initial outlay on the asset.
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The RNLI have large reserves principally for the building of new boathouses in very exposed locations (Lizard, Porthdinallaen, St David's etc)to accommodate the Tamar class and to be able to fund the Shannon class and associated shoreworks. RNLI lifeboats are not insured against loss, think of the cost, any lifeboat can be lost any day hence another need for reserves. The RNLI have also introduced a Lean programme in an attempt to cut costs.
 
Erbas said:
<Sigh> Like many UK charities the RNLI is nervously eyeing a future where one of their most significant sources of major funding, legacies, is in rapid decline

A decade ago or more, the Charities Commission was actively pushing charities to draw down their long term reserves and spend income rather than invest it

Now, that attitude has (largely) gone into reverse and prudent charity trustees are looking to build and the maintain investment portfolios (which is where the reserves are held) to generate sufficient income to meet the day to day running costs of the charity

Building reserves is a good thing. Furthermore, if you're going to build a reserve to cover the operation, maintenance and eventual replacement of a depreciating asset you're going to have to invest significantly more in the reserve than the initial outlay on the asset.
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The RNLI have about £600m in reserves. How many new boats did they launch - or are in progress- in 2012 and for what total net cost?

Investment net in boats in 2012 : £10m.
Increase in reserves in 2012: £38m

Source : RNLI 2012 audited accounts.
 
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toad_oftoadhall said:
That's a matter of opinion. The last thing I want a charity to do is hoard cash, I want it to be turned into 'value' for the cause I contributed it for ASAP. I'm sure other people prefer their cash to go into reserves, and good luck to them.
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As so many British boats cruise in French waters perhaps they could consider a contribution to their poorer brethren.
 
Sybarite said:
My original point was that ostensibly the RnLI were spending nearly three times more per boat than the nearest French equivalent. It was explained that the essential difference was the cost of jet propulsion. I reported one SNSM's skipper's opinion namely that a lot of grit is swept up into the turbines, both by the turbulence of shallow water as well as the action of the turbines themselves.

I would be interested to know why a different/ more expensive make of jet gets round this basic point.

I'm sure that the RNLI with their structure will have worked this one through but I would be happy if somebody could give me their basic reasoning ie to confirm that they will not experience with their jets the apparent problem experienced by the French, who would appear to have a longer operational experience in the area, something I had not known.
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Jets have been around for a very long time and enough to know what is good and bad about them. RNLI have decided that they will do the job that they want them to do. Not sure that another operator's (unspecified) problems with completely different boats has to do with it.

The investment in the boat building facility is designed to make them independent of outside contractors because they believe they have enough future requirement to justify having their own facility. There are no builders in the UK who have the expertise to build these boats. The ability to do this has only come about recently because of the acquisition of a major waterside site in Poole which is part of the development of the Holes Bay area following the demolition of the old power station, closure of a redundant chemical plant and improvements in the transport infrastructure with a new bridge. This is not done on a whim, but a long term project to ensure that they can meet the future demands on their services.

Sorry if it sounds like PR puff, but I can see the facility out of my bedroom window, drive past it most days and have seen it become a major marine industry facility bringing in expertise and employment in the area. One of the advantages of having the organisation funded independently (and well funded) is that it can make these sorts of long term decisions without outside interference from shareholders or politicians.
 
Sybarite said:
The RNLI have about £600m in reserves. How many new boats did they launch - or are in progress- in 2012 and for what total net cost?

Investment net in boats in 2012 : £10m.
Increase in reserves in 2012: £38m

Source : RNLI 2012 audited accounts.
Click to expand...

there are at least 5 Shannons under construction + launching equipment with about another 50 to follow, 3 new slipway stations Porthdinallaen Mumbles Moelfre with St Davids to follow under construction + re engine of Severn class boats etc
also new boathouses for some Shannon class lifeboats and a new station at Portishead and the new centre at Poole
perhaps this is why they have built up reserves
Perhaps you might consider writing a constructive letter to Poole HQ outlining your concerns and asking for clarification of their financial position
 
Tranona said:
Jets have been around for a very long time and enough to know what is good and bad about them. RNLI have decided that they will do the job that they want them to do. Not sure that another operator's (unspecified) problems with completely different boats has to do with it.

The investment in the boat building facility is designed to make them independent of outside contractors because they believe they have enough future requirement to justify having their own facility. There are no builders in the UK who have the expertise to build these boats. The ability to do this has only come about recently because of the acquisition of a major waterside site in Poole which is part of the development of the Holes Bay area following the demolition of the old power station, closure of a redundant chemical plant and improvements in the transport infrastructure with a new bridge. This is not done on a whim, but a long term project to ensure that they can meet the future demands on their services.

Sorry if it sounds like PR puff, but I can see the facility out of my bedroom window, drive past it most days and have seen it become a major marine industry facility bringing in expertise and employment in the area. One of the advantages of having the organisation funded independently (and well funded) is that it can make these sorts of long term decisions without outside interference from shareholders or politicians.
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Their logic would seem to go against what ia applied in industry ie in difficult times you recentre core operations and outsource what are not your traditional strongpoints.

The French have a different approach. They have several firms capable of building their boats which adds the element of price competition, and their quality control will ensure that standards are maintained. I was on one of their series one boats, the nearest equivalent in terms of size to the Shannon and it was an impressive machine. It's crew called it an all weather boat even though this qualification is limited to the green hulled boats. These are spaced so that no part on the coast is more than 35 miles from one, and all the other classes fill the spaces in between.

Fwiw, here are examples of their fleet.

http://www.bateauxdepeche.net/pagesnsm.htm#odepagesnsm
 
Tranona said:
Jets have been around for a very long time and enough to know what is good and bad about them. RNLI have decided that they will do the job that they want them to do. Not sure that another operator's (unspecified) problems with completely different boats has to do with it.

The investment in the boat building facility is designed to make them independent of outside contractors because they believe they have enough future requirement to justify having their own facility. There are no builders in the UK who have the expertise to build these boats. The ability to do this has only come about recently because of the acquisition of a major waterside site in Poole which is part of the development of the Holes Bay area following the demolition of the old power station, closure of a redundant chemical plant and improvements in the transport infrastructure with a new bridge. This is not done on a whim, but a long term project to ensure that they can meet the future demands on their services.

Sorry if it sounds like PR puff, but I can see the facility out of my bedroom window, drive past it most days and have seen it become a major marine industry facility bringing in expertise and employment in the area. One of the advantages of having the organisation funded independently (and well funded) is that it can make these sorts of long term decisions without outside interference from shareholders or politicians.
Click to expand...

Shannons are currently fitted out at Berthon Lymington although that will change when the new facility is finished at Poole
 
Sybarite said:
Their logic would seem to go against what ia applied in industry ie in difficult times you recentre core operations and outsource what are not your traditional strongpoints.

The French have a different approach. They have several firms capable of building their boats which adds the element of price competition, and their quality control will ensure that standards are maintained. I was on one of their series one boats, the nearest equivalent in terms of size to the Shannon and it was an impressive machine. It's crew called it an all weather boat even though this qualification is limited to the green hulled boats. These are spaced so that no part on the coast is more than 35 miles from one, and all the other classes fill the spaces in between.

Fwiw, here are examples of their fleet.

http://www.bateauxdepeche.net/pagesnsm.htm#odepagesnsm
Click to expand...

The RNLI isn't "in industry" - it's a mission critical infrastructure provider.

The move to bring production in house was triggered by two serious problems with suppliers - the delamination associated with the early Severn and Trent classes, and the major issues with Cat / GM engines in a number of classes. It also provides for easier refurbishment, and the ability to drop non-urgent work to cope with crises.

It also keeps accountability within the organisation.

The rush to outsource is / was a very western thing - the major far eastern businesses never did, just look at Daewoo.
 
chanelyacht said:
The rush to outsource is / was a very western thing - the major far eastern businesses never did, just look at Daewoo.
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But Daewoo went bust in 1999; the Korean Government then dismantled the sprawling conglomerate and only a few bits survive today.
 
chanelyacht said:
The RNLI isn't "in industry" - it's a mission critical infrastructure provider.
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This is just business speak jargon.

It is a question of managing large organisations. Many have learnt to their cost, through so-called diversifications, that they bit off more than they could chew and were not experienced or competent to manage what was not their core competence. How often do you hear about conglomerates divesting themselves of what was not their original activity?

The alternative is to hire in at enormous cost the expertise necessary to run the operation but which exists already elsewhere - what the French would call creating an " usine à gaz".

Otoh the French do have a service centre for their boats with some 40 mechanics who represent the large majority of permanent employees in the country ie somewhat fewer in number than those earning over £60k in the RNLI.
 
Sybarite said:
This is just business speak jargon.

It is a question of managing large organisations. Many have learnt to their cost, through so-called diversifications, that they bit off more than they could chew and were not experienced or competent to manage what was not their core competence. How often do you hear about conglomerates divesting themselves of what was not their original activity?

The alternative is to hire in at enormous cost the expertise necessary to run the operation but which exists already elsewhere - what the French would call creating an " usine à gaz".

Otoh the French do have a service centre for their boats with some 40 mechanics who represent the large majority of permanent employees in the country ie somewhat fewer in number than those earning over £60k in the RNLI.
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according to 2012 RNLI accounts there are 37 employees earning £60+


their free reserves are £80m approx. equal to about 9 months running costs
 
Sybarite said:
This is just business speak jargon.
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It's you that is using business speak Jargon though, your comparison paired the RNLI against a Private Sector business and you said the RNLI isn't behaving like a business should - Private Sector Businesses will outsource more in times of hardship because that way they can make more profit, it doesn't necessarily matter to them if the service is made poorer by this.

The RNLI, as Chanelyacht very accurately said, and shouldn't be dismissed so glibly, is *not a private business* you cannot therefore expect it to operate in that way and comparing it to one is like apples and pears. The RNLI is focussed on providing the VERY BEST service and so they are more likely to be creative about cash reserves as well as own-house manufacturing, it's just logical.
 
dogleg said:
according to 2012 RNLI accounts there are 37 employees earning £60+


their free reserves are £80m approx. equal to about 9 months running costs
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What do you think the RNLI should be spending their money on?

They have identifiable fixed asset reserves of £ 435 m. Their net spend on boats was £10m. The crews are volunteers and so how do you work out that £80m represents 9 months spend? Staff salaries?

Total reserves £613m which increased, despite boat spend, by £38m in the year......
 
Sybarite said:
They have identifiable fixed asset reserves of £ 435 m. Their net spend on boats was £10m.

Total reserves £613m which increased, despite boat spend, by £38m in the year......
Click to expand...

What I can't work out is why you think that any of this is a problem.

Pete
 
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