Lifeboats .... Again

[toad_oftoadhall]

Where is it implied that this was not the case?

You said: I was asking him if he had had any shouts over the week- end. He said no, luckily because both boats are out of the water being repaired. Which implies to me that this was not planned

There was since post #4

You asked pvr where it was implied that there was no relief boat. He directly answered your question by telling you.

But the toad was right.

not in my mind one has to only look at post 4.

No doubt some forumites will be content with the version in your mind. However, wiser forumites will simply read for themselves, and see that question was asked and pvr directly answered it.

 

[rib]

and even wiser ones will see you have missed a quote so it all twists your way

 

[prv]

a significant part of the RNLI Shannon cost is the submersible caterpillar tractor system, and that allows the boat to drive on & off the trailer in water probably deep enough for the jets to suffer minimal damage.

My understanding is that they do not drive back onto the carriage at any point while afloat. They beach the boat and then pick it up.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

My understanding is that they do not drive back onto the carriage at any point while afloat. They beach the boat and then pick it up.

Pete

Yes, seems so. Was looking at them using the remote control carriage the other day at the maintenance facility in Cobbs Quay. Picks the boat up and moves it around rather like a low profile travel hoist all controlled remotely just like the latest Wise hoists.

 

[prv]

Was looking at them using the remote control carriage the other day

Oh, didn't know they had a remote control option. Is this just a controller for the usual tractor/carriage (easy enough since it's all electronically-controlled hydraulics already) or a separate piece of kit?

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Operator walked around with the control unit round his neck. Couple of joysticks, and he parked the boat between two others all on his own. Rather eerie!

 

[prv]

Operator walked around with the control unit round his neck. Couple of joysticks, and he parked the boat between two others all on his own. Rather eerie!

Right, but was the thing he was driving the full Supacat tractor and revolving launch cradle, or some lesser beast for yard purposes?

The radio control boxes have been common on all kinds of big lifting gear for quite a while now.

Pete

 

[Tintin]

Clearly hasn't got much experience of handling jet boats in surf.

With jets the engines constantly run at full working revs. Even when stationary.
The thrust is controlled by 'the buckets'. Flip the buckets open and you have instantaneous full power.
Flip them down and you have instantaneous full power in reverse.

Do a Youtube search on the guys who run trips round Ramsey Island from Whitesands Bay in Pembroke. (Venture Jets?) They developed a RIB that became Ocean Dynamics, and seem to have had 30+ years experience of running passenger jet boats in surf. Can't imagine any other power boats except jetboats being able to mix it in what is otherwise exclusively surf board and kayak territory. If they were hard to control you think they might have had an accident in 30 plus years of trips, every hour, day in day out.

I used to kayak there regularly (therocks that cause the overfall are known as The Bitches) back in the late 80's- there have been several very near misses.

In the early days their attitude was basically "charge through and hope the kayaks get out of the way" - on more than one occasion I had cause to use some strong language.

More recently(in the past 15 years) I have taken both a jet ski and a 5.3m RIB (with a 90hp 2-stroke on it) out to play on the waves there - the RIB had far better control and acceleration.

The main reason for the commercial RIBs having jets is for loading and unloading punters at Whitesands bay, and has nothing to do with safety of kaykers and surfers on the waves at the Bitches.

 

[Sybarite]

2 boats withdrawn for repair & one relief provided? One wonders at the need for 2 boats at one station unless they are for different functions but to withdraw BOTH at the same time for repair doesn't sound like sensible routine maintenance to me, nor does the word "repair" imply anything other than there have been failures.

But maybe David's English has suffered with him being from Mersea & spending a lot of time in France?

There again, failures are what you might expect when running a life-saving service on the very tight budget that David admires so much.

It would be interesting to know how those French boats are launched & recovered in bad onshore winds, as a significant part of the RNLI Shannon cost is the submersible caterpillar tractor system, and that allows the boat to drive on & off the trailer in water probably deep enough for the jets to suffer minimal damage. The RNLI designers do really think their problems thro very well.

In the Rade de Lorient there are 5 different ports, as well as a large number of pleasure boats. Two Snsm boats are there but these are not the only facilities. There is a naval base with helicopter back- up, pilot boats whose specification is very close to a lifeboat's as well as the Firefighters boat who were offocially on standby that night and who recovered a few boats which had broken their moorings.

There seems to be a lot of people who feel that they want to give lessons to the French. The French have the habit of managing very well on their resources and knowing what they are doing - even to the extent of trying jet-engined boats before the RNLI. Which people were all too ready to explain to me was the main reason why the Shannon boats were so much more expensive than the equivalent French boats.

As I suggested in the last series, there would appear to be scope for comparing notes.

PS What has David to do with this?

 

[penfold]

Clearly hasn't got much experience of handling jet boats in surf.

With jets the engines constantly run at full working revs. Even when stationary.
The thrust is controlled by 'the buckets'. Flip the buckets open and you have instantaneous full power.
Flip them down and you have instantaneous full power in reverse.
<snip>
Wear and tear in sand and pebble filled shallow water can be high. But what's the alternative? By the time the water is that shallow, any conventional boat will either have had it's stern gear torn off, or a tunnel boat will be hard aground.

That would concur with my limited experience of driving a jet boat; using the bucket control gives instant control of thrust, no delay there at all. If the water is aerated enough to choke a jet a prop drive will not be doing anything useful anyway.

 

[dogleg]

I was speaking this afternoon to a friend on the marina staff who, for the last ten years, has also been the cox of the lifeboat. I was asking him if he had had any shouts over the week- end. He said no, luckily because both boats are out of the water being repaired.

I then told him about our discussion last year concerning the relative cost of the new RNLI Shannon boats and how it had been explained to me that they were specially designed for shallow water operation and therefore had jet engines.

His response: the two boats being repaired were both jet-engined boats and they were being repaired because they were jet boats. He said that because the jets, in turbulent water, draw in all sorts of sand and gravel which play havoc with the turbines.

He also said jets were much slower to respond to the throttle than props which made them difficult to handle in breaking surf conditions.

The third problem was that they had the greatest problem getting spare parts because the jet engine manufacturer has gone bust.

On a final point regarding the volunteer aspect, he said that, not only did he not get paid but for shouts during working hours, he has to make good the time lost to his employer.

Yours in anticipation......

The Shannon is fitted with Hamilton water jets driven by Scania engines. Hamilton are one, if not the world leader in this field. I don't think they are likely to go bust. The prototype Shannon now in the relief fleet has been has been subjected to extensive sea and launching trials around the B I. She has been launched over sand, mud shingle and stone beaches as far apart as Dungerness, St Ives and Ireland. Every station likely to be allocated a Shannon has seen the boat with coxswains and crew being given the chance to try her and suggest modifications. The first station boat due to arrive at Dungerness early in 2014. Knowing one of the coxswains closely involved in the trials I can assure you that he is highly impressed with the boat and he is not easy to impress. All boats are more difficult to control in heavy surf whether prop or jets.

The Dutch have operated an all jet fleet for many years and are in the process of developing a replacement for their 19metre boats which is also jet driven. Swedish lifeboats are I believe jet driven as are the Spanish boats I have been on in Cadiz and Teneriffe. Most wind farm support vessels are also jet driven. Any mechanical device can go wrong.

Having had 25 years experience of RNLI boats they are excellent safe sea boats well designed and built. If they are expensive compared to some other organisations so what. Despite what some may think generally RNLI HQ get things right and from what I have heard the Shannon falls into that category. Time will tell. The launching carriage is basically a mobile slipway but as far as I know the boat on return beaches itself before being recovered.

 

[Sybarite]

and even wiser ones will see you have missed a quote so it all twists your way

Toad's selective myopia is true to form.

 

[rotrax]

I dont really know why this is starting up again.
Last time everything was covered pretty well.
The French SAR is a totally different systen to the RNLI.
The French have their reasons for going the way they have, it has its pro's and con's.
The RLNI ditto.

The best conclusion to draw is that whatever craft they are issued with these brave crew are there when needed with kit that is pretty good for the job and top class training.

We should ALL be thankfull for it.

 

[Tranona]

There seems to be a lot of people who feel that they want to give lessons to the French. The French have the habit of managing very well on their resources and knowing what they are doing - even to the extent of trying jet-engined boats before the RNLI. Which people were all too ready to explain to me was the main reason why the Shannon boats were so much more expensive than the equivalent French boats.

As I suggested in the last series, there would appear to be scope for comparing notes.

Think the boot is on the other foot. You regularly raise this issue as a criticism of the RNLI.

Are you seriously suggesting that they do not know the pros and cons off using jets? and have taken these into account before investing substantial sums in the new boats. Pretty sure they will have looked closely at the French experience of using jet boats - even if the boats and systems are not directly comparable. Pretty sure they have also tried jet boats themselves, just as they have a fleet of hovercraft and have developed a wide range of inflatables and RIBs to suit the differing requirements around our coasts.

Can't see what the basis is for saying there is "scope for comparing notes" - how do you know that the two organisations don't talk to eachother? Perhaps that is the reason why the RNLI do not use small jet boats, having learned from the bad experience of the French as you have described!

 

[dogleg]

The RNLI tried jets with the Medina class in the 1980's which were unsuccessful. The Dutch have used an all jet offshore fleet successfully for 20 years or more and are currently designing a new 19 metre jet boat.

The Shannon uses Hamilton jets driven by Scania engines. Hamilton are one of, if not the leader in jet technology. Jets are widely used in the wind farm support fleet and with other Sar organisations. Before the eventual hull design was chosen the RNLI looked both French and other designs. The first Shannon now in the relief fleet has been subjected to extensive trials all round the BI and has been carriage launched over sand, stone, shingle and other surfaces successfully. First station Shannon will go on station at Dungerness in early 2014. The Shannon has visited all stations that are likely to be allocated one and input has been taken and acted upon as a result. Exactly the same happened with the Tamar development resulting in an excellent boat. Launching conditions around the BI are much more varied than France. Are any French offshore lifeboats launched by carriage and tractor?

All mechanical systems whether jet or props are liable to problems. Working in heavy surf with any boat is difficult irrespective of the propulsion system.
The RNLI talk to other SAR organisations frequently.

 

[Sybarite]

Think the boot is on the other foot. You regularly raise this issue as a criticism of the RNLI.

Are you seriously suggesting that they do not know the pros and cons off using jets? and have taken these into account before investing substantial sums in the new boats. Pretty sure they will have looked closely at the French experience of using jet boats - even if the boats and systems are not directly comparable. Pretty sure they have also tried jet boats themselves, just as they have a fleet of hovercraft and have developed a wide range of inflatables and RIBs to suit the differing requirements around our coasts.

Can't see what the basis is for saying there is "scope for comparing notes" - how do you know that the two organisations don't talk to eachother? Perhaps that is the reason why the RNLI do not use small jet boats, having learned from the bad experience of the French as you have described!

I was simply passing on the opinion of a lifeboat cox'n who really didn't like jet boats for practical reasons. I would certainly hope that the powers that be in the RNLI would have looked into this but the fact that they are trying to bring eveything in-house would suggest that their focus is inward looking and trying to re-invent the wheel when there are very good functional technologies out there. Perhaps this is a consequence of having virtually unlilited budgets?

 

[Tranona]

I was simply passing on the opinion of a lifeboat cox'n who really didn't like jet boats for practical reasons. I would certainly hope that the powers that be in the RNLI would have looked into this but the fact that they are trying to bring eveything in-house would suggest that their focus is inward looking and trying to re-invent the wheel when there are very good functional technologies out there. Perhaps this is a consequence of having virtually unlilited budgets?

Nothing wrong with passing on the view that clearly demonstrate that the French service does not get it right all the time - in this case buying unsatisfactory jet boats. But a bit much to use that as a criticism of the RNLI and suggest that the RNLI does not know what it is doing.

Suggest you pop over to Poole sometime and see the facilities and the amount of investment that has gone into developing the right sort of equipment - investment primarily because of the instability of the marine industry in the UK. Makes sense to have your own construction and maintenance facility when you have the expertise to use it.

 

[ccscott49]

The RNLI tried jets with the Medina class in the 1980's which were unsuccessful. The Dutch have used an all jet offshore fleet successfully for 20 years or more and are currently designing a new 19 metre jet boat.

The Shannon uses Hamilton jets driven by Scania engines. Hamilton are one of, if not the leader in jet technology. Jets are widely used in the wind farm support fleet and with other Sar organisations. Before the eventual hull design was chosen the RNLI looked both French and other designs. The first Shannon now in the relief fleet has been subjected to extensive trials all round the BI and has been carriage launched over sand, stone, shingle and other surfaces successfully. First station Shannon will go on station at Dungerness in early 2014. The Shannon has visited all stations that are likely to be allocated one and input has been taken and acted upon as a result. Exactly the same happened with the Tamar development resulting in an excellent boat. Launching conditions around the BI are much more varied than France. Are any French offshore lifeboats launched by carriage and tractor?

All mechanical systems whether jet or props are liable to problems. Working in heavy surf with any boat is difficult irrespective of the propulsion system.
The RNLI talk to other SAR organisations frequently.

Dogleg?? are you in the directional business?

 

[Bru]

you've got to chuckle when Sybarite manages to twist a negative point about the French lifeboat service into a veiled criticism of the RNLI!

 

[Sybarite]

. Makes sense to have your own construction and maintenance facility when you have the expertise to use it.

Does it? When you put more into reserves than your net spend on boats? RNLI 2012 accounts.