Life of a wooden boat?

[Searush]

I'm reading "Atlantic Adventrers" by Humphrey barton at the moment and came across the following quote. Bearing in mind that peopla often ask "how long does a GRP boat last?" I fond his comments (written in 1952) quite interesting. What does the panel think? (yes, I know it's The length of a piece of string question)

Some of the yachts built in the early part of this century by reputable yards have lasted very well, but most of them are coming towards the end of their sea-going days now & many have already been broken up. They used teak or Pensacola pitch pine for such important parts of the hull structure as the beam shelf, deck beams and bilge stringers but the wood keel, stem, stern post, floors & frames of the vessels were always of English oak and I have found that they are usually the first members of the structure to decay, particularly the frames. . . . . . So it will be seen that the life of many yachts is about forty years. They may last another ten years if looked after carefully and used only for cruising in sheltered waters, and yet another ten if placed in a nice soft mud berth and used as houseboats.

 

[tillergirl]

Bit sweeping. TG is now 46 years old so living on borrowed time according to that.

I guess if maintenance is poor, he is right or perhaps even being optimistic.

Curiously I have had to repair the beam shelf (iroko) but not the keel (Oak)!

 

[Tranona]

I agree with Humphrey Barton. The boats he was talking about were never expected to last a long time. How could they when they are built of materials that decay naturally and are then used in conditions that encourage decay? Never mind the often poor choice of materials for cost or availability reasons - or just ignorance.

Its a bit like the myth of old cars "they don't make them like they used to" - thank goodness!. For every one that survives there are thousands that have fallen apart or rusted away. Same with boats, but we don't see them because they literally disappear.

Of course some are very well maintained and/or rebuilt so those that survive are not representative of the mass. Probably the heyday of high class wooden yacht building was the 50's and 60's when construction methods and materials benefitted from the huge advances of the war effort. Cruiser racers built by yards such as Tucker Brown or McGruers are in a different league from earlier wooden boats, but hey disappeared once GRP came in and offered superior shapes for less cost.

 

[westernman]

Wooden boats in Vietnam last about ten years.

However, they never do any maintenance on them at all.
The wood in general is not coated at all - although it might have had a (one) coat of paint on it when it came out of the yard that built it.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Border Maid is 62 years old (clinker mahogany on oak) and there's a boat two pontoons along built in 1894 (in Fairlie) which has not yet required restoration and is still sailing.

 

[sailorman]

I'm reading "Atlantic Adventrers" by Humphrey barton at the moment and came across the following quote. Bearing in mind that peopla often ask "how long does a GRP boat last?" I fond his comments (written in 1952) quite interesting. What does the panel think? (yes, I know it's The length of a piece of string question)

200-year-old Boadicea may be oldest regularly sailed boat in world

A lifeboatman will celebrate the 200th anniversary of his boat, Boadicea, tomorrow. The boat, a 30ft, 12-tonne oyster smack owned by Reuben Frost, of West Mersea, Essex, may be the oldest boat in the world still regularly sailed.

She was built when Britannia ruled the waves, three years after Nelson died at Trafalgar, and she has been in the Frost family for 70 years. Mr Frost still has the boat's registration document, paperwork detailing the owners over two centuries, and has a website - www.oystersmack.org.uk.

He said: “I think she's survived so long because she's always been loved.” Boadicea was built by James Williamson of Maldon, Essex, and bought by Mr Frost's grandfather, Michael Frost, a dentist who lived in Colchester, Essex, for £175 in 1938.

“She was built in 1808 as an oyster smack and was worked commercially until 1938, when she passed into the hands of my grandfather,” said Mr Frost, who works as a fireman.

“During the spring and summer Boadicea can be found regularly racing against other smacks and classic yachts and if there is a stiff breeze we can hold our own. During the autumn we still drift net for herring.

“Boadicea is solid as a rock at sea, even in a hard blow with everyone else putting a reef in she comes alive. Aft, at the helm, you can still sit with a cup of tea and bacon sandwich with no fear of losing either if you put them down.”

Mr Frost says Boadicea has been repaired and renovated many times and had an engine fitted in the 1970s.He hopes she will soon have a new life as a charter boat.

He said: “She's only had a dozen owners and they've all taken great care of her. She'll see me out and hopefully pass on to the next generation of the family.”

 

[monkey_trousers]

seems a bit scathing of oak in that statement. Pansy is nearly 75, and given that she was a working fishing boat for the first 50 years, has had a pretty hard life. most of the oak is still in fine fettle. the bits that weren't were due to errors and neglect by folks that had her between decommissioning and me getting her. hopefully I've put that to rights now.

peeling of a few planks last week to reveal the stem post and apron was a revelation. the oak is still, well oak coloured, not blackened at all and is as hard as iron.

I guess than answer lies in how they've been looked after

 

[Lakesailor]

I've just been sorely tempted by an old wooden boat. It's the same class as the one I first learned to sail on.
The seller claims it's 1890, but the builders weren't building at the location until 1893. Still an old lady though.

 

[Redwing228]

Design Life

Uffa Fox quoted a 'design life' for the clinker-built Redwing dinghy of about 50 years and, judging by how most of the remaining fleet are coping, he was probably about right. So Humphrey Barton's comments are not to far off the mark.

Another point worth mentioning is that boats built in the immediate post WW2 period were often of shockingly poor materials - from some I have had experience of

Overall it really is down to how well a wooden boat is looked after - keeping rainwater out of her seems to be a key to longevity, perhaps?

 

[chinita]

Mine is 47 and has not been obsessively over maintained. I reckon she will be good for another 47.

Could Barton's views be down to the fact that he was trying to sell NEW wooden boats on behalf of Laurent Giles I wonder?

"Oh, you don't want to buy that old thing - only got another ten years in her. Hey, why don't you buy the plans for a nice new one from us? You could use that new fangled Hire Purchase thing to help pay for it. You know it makes sense!"

By all accounts he was a very good salesman.

 

[SurferShane]

So we are not talking about how long “wooden boats” last as in the heading; what we are really talking about is "how long does a GRP boat last" as in the quote you cite?"

There is a huge difference in the two questions. Please don’t think I am criticising you. It is more like I can see people getting all confused as just happened to me in another thread. I also don’t want to see traditonal wooden boat enthusiasts getting all upset about the lifespan of their babies.

GRP is hugely different to traditional wooden boat construction and obviously there is some validity in the quote you cite. I am no expert, but it is obvious water eventually gets through the fibreglass sheathing and causes the ply to rot. Some boats have a reputation of this starting around deck fittings. I have been involved with a fibreglass boat where the ply bulkheads have rotted under the sheathing. If this boat was entirely GRP construction I would have said it was totally beyond its used by date. Similarly a lot of fibreglass runabouts over here have the sheathed stringers rot away causing major structural failure. I can only postulate that this situation much be much worse in an entirely GRP boat?

At least in a traditional wooden boat you have easier access to these stringers and hull/deck planking for inspection, maintenance and repair? As such, well built traditional wooden boats made of materials like Huon pine can last hundreds of years.

 

[Redwing228]

Re-build it..

At least in a traditional wooden boat you have easier access to these stringers and hull/deck planking for inspection, maintenance and repair? As such, well built traditional wooden boats made of materials like Huon pine can last hundreds of years.

(Maybe a moderator might like to re-write the header?)

Indeed so... Some wooden boats are like the farmer's proverbial 'faithful old broom', they've had so much of them re-built. 'Bodicea' mentioned earlier in this thread is a prime example - not criticising this approach - it is just that most conventionally-built wooden boats can be taken to bits and re-built.

However this is not universally true - One of our 'relics' is a 1969-built cold-moulded International 14 held together entirely with a urea-formaldehyde resin glue that is letting go big style now

 

[SurferShane]

Indeed so... Some wooden boats are like the farmer's proverbial 'faithful old broom', they've had so much of them re-built. 'Bodicea' mentioned earlier in this thread is a prime example - not criticising this approach - it is just that most conventionally-built wooden boats can be taken to bits and re-built.

However this is not universally true - One of our 'relics' is a 1969-built cold-moulded International 14 held together entirely with a urea-formaldehyde resin glue that is letting go big style now

Just goes to show how a 'faithful old broom' can be just as useful - if not more useful in many circumstances - then even outlast a vacuum cleaner? Sounds like the 1969 “relic” is an early attempt at moving toward this modern technology? I also wonder whether some of the more recently glassed over wood plank construction boats (as distinct from glassed over ply/GRP) will eventually suffer a similar fate?

 

[ccscott49]

I would say, being the owner of a 45 year old wooden boat, with no rot anywhere and nothing been replaced, it's all down to the materials, construction method and maintenance, as to how long a boat will last.
My brothers is even older, much older (1935) and with maintenace will last much longer.

But of course we forget, owning and maintaining a wooden boat is all part of our hobby, whereas owning a GRP boat is something different.

I'm just a museum curator, taking care of the boat for her next owner.

 

[Simon_and_Tanja]

Timbers in our house (poo on oak) are around 400 years old and were ships timbers before that! Admittedly they don't get wet that often but have never seen a lick of paint.

On the boat, I'm much more worried about the fastenings than the wood itself. If the boat was an oaken dugout and left in the water it would last for hundreds of years!

 

[Tranona]

Humphrey Barton's comments have to be taken in the context of the time they were written. He is very specifically talking about boats built in the early part of the 20th century, many of which were built by workboat builders down to a price. There is "oak" and "oak" - as with all materials good and bad. Fastenings were usually iron - which does not agree with oak, particularly when the two are in damp fetid bilges, leading to rot on the ends of frames and ribs. Basic structures were flexible making it difficult to keep water out of the wood. Add to this the 20 years prior to his writing were periods of hardship and war when yachts were neglected.

It is not that wooden boats can't be built and maintained to last a long time - mine is 47 years and still fine, the combination of poor materials, poor structures and poor maintenance leads to a short life.

 

[sailorman]

Just goes to show how a 'faithful old broom' can be just as useful - if not more useful in many circumstances - then even outlast a vacuum cleaner? Sounds like the 1969 “relic” is an early attempt at moving toward this modern technology? I also wonder whether some of the more recently glassed over wood plank construction boats (as distinct from glassed over ply/GRP) will eventually suffer a similar fate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk24RdfXWcg

 

[KAIROS]

sum of it's parts

When a part of a wood boat goes bad, it can be repaired or replaced. A wood boat is not a disposable item.....it's repairable. I expect that as wood boats become more dear to us, their typical lifespan will greatly increase. Even boats that are old now may live several more lives.

 

[Searush]

Sorry Surfershane The quote is from 1952, Barton was talking about all wood boats. My reference to GRP boats was to pure grp designed & built (mostly post mid-50's). I agree that any wooden boat can be rebuilt piecemeal and that is part of their strength, but Humph was basically talking about the need for rebuilding older wooden boats. You comments, while interesting, are not relevant to my original query.

Tranona You have hit on a key aspect of HB's beliefs, I cut a sentence or two about iron fastenings to reduce the quote length, but the incompatibility of oak & iron leading to nail sickness is a part of his argument. The cost of refastening could easily exceed the value of the boat. We also need to remember that boat prices (especially for older boats) were relatively low then. Today people may spend more on repairing an historic vessel than it might cost to replace her.

 

[SurferShane]

Sorry Surfershane The quote is from 1952, Barton was talking about all wood boats. My reference to GRP boats was to pure grp designed & built (mostly post mid-50's). I agree that any wooden boat can be rebuilt piecemeal and that is part of their strength, but Humph was basically talking about the need for rebuilding older wooden boats. You comments, while interesting, are not relevant to my original query.

I respectfully agree to disagree. My apology as I reviewed your comment “Bearing in mind that people often ask "how long does a GRP boat last?" and realised the quote itself is talking about traditional wooden boat construction. My mistake! I suppose the real answer in to your question is that you might be lucky and find a 1950’s boat of the construction you are referring where the builder went to the expense of using better timber throughout the whole boat? Such a boat would have an indefinite lifespan and would be a worthy investment?

Nevertheless, my answer is nearly the same. Of course, in the Barton’s text the hulls are of better quality timbers such as early GRP sheathed teak and the problem seems to be with the use of more vulnerable English oak in other parts of the vessel. It sounds a major pity to me as unless these boats are of particular historic importance they might not be worth rebuilding? However, when it comes to comparing any budget GRP boat to traditional wooden boat construction out of Huon Pine an incredible timber from Tasmania we are basically comparing apples to oranges. There is a huge difference in the lifespan of either.

The well constructed wooden boat made from such high quality timbers can last for hundreds of years whereas within decades a GRP boat might have significant structural problems due water penetrating and rotting the lower quality timbers concealed under glass, or as in Barton’s quote become unseaworthy from the use of lesser quality timbers elsewhere in the boat. On the other hand, timbers like Huon pine can actually be stored underwater. Likewise, timber found in lakes is well preserved and is still perfectly good for use

Again, please don’t take this as any sort of criticism as I do find your question and the quote of extreme interest. I came over here as a fan of Classic Boat magazine. I have also been active on another American cruising forum where the balance of opinion is against wooden boats.

I own a steel Herreshoff which is so well constructed and true to the traditional plans people actually ask me what she is made of. The real advantage of steel is that it is much more impact resistant and in heavy seas you are not likely to fracture ribs, pop planks or have your deckhouse torn away. These are situations when some wooden boats will require significant rebuilding as in the quote. Still, had I have read a bit more Classic Boat, Lin & Larry Pardey and have participated in discussions such as you have raised, I would have had no hesitation buying one of those magnificent old Huon pine boats. Although going at bargain prices, they really have stood the test of time and are bound for boating immortality. Treat them kindly and the well built examples will last “forever”.

Maybe too I would steer clear of the poor construction Barton cites! I might have to go find a copy of Barton’s book as he sounds like a real visionary and I am sure there is a lot more interesting content that is still valid today? At the moment I am reading L. Francis Herreshoff’s “The Complete Cruiser”, which is full of similar wisdom.

Anyway, while I was looking around for links to Huon pine I found this link that might be of interest to wooden boat enthusiasts

http://www.woodenboatcentre.com/

They also have a wooden boat festival happening in Hobart in February 2011

http://www.australianwoodenboatfestival.com.au/html/about.html

Now how long is a piece of string?