Letter to RYA re closures

[RJJ]

Many Garden centres are a drive away for some too. and my post did mention those that might have to travel further might still be restricted , I also said those closer to their boats could be allowed in
France has lifted their lock down in stages and people are allowed to travel no more than 60 miles it seems, Although I do not know if this will include sailing, but then we are not France and need to make decisions based on this country

Garden centres see hundreds of people, and will see thousands if they open up. I am all for it by the way; the science relating to transmission from passers-by at a sensible distance is entirely compelling unless they/you are silly enough to walk through each other's sneeze cloud. Cough/sneeze into your elbow, disinfect your trolley, keep 2m and it's fine.

But we'll see all sorts of silly comparisons. Boatyards seriously, are better for social distance than Battersea Park by a factor of about 50.

 

[RJJ]

Update: it is worth reviewing the Regulations (which bind us) and the Guidance to Employers (which bind the yards) in detail.

The closure of yards hinges on two things (1) assuming themselves the obligation and power to enforce the Regulations (2) assuming, following discussion with their trade association, that they are grouped with caravan sites although the Guidance (a) groups caravan sites with accommodation such as hotels etc, which boatyards do not need to be and typically do not permit anyway (b) states the rationale relating to accommodation as "prolonged close social contact". Well I'd love some prolonged close social contact with anyone wanting to work on my boat with me, but since it's just me I figure I'm good on that one.

I am starting engaging with the yard and will revert.

 

[[70521]]

Update: it is worth reviewing the Regulations (which bind us) and the Guidance to Employers (which bind the yards) in detail.

The closure of yards hinges on two things (1) assuming themselves the obligation and power to enforce the Regulations (2) assuming, following discussion with their trade association, that they are grouped with caravan sites although the Guidance (a) groups caravan sites with accommodation such as hotels etc, which boatyards do not need to be and typically do not permit anyway (b) states the rationale relating to accommodation as "prolonged close social contact". Well I'd love some prolonged close social contact with anyone wanting to work on my boat with me, but since it's just me I figure I'm good on that one.

I am starting engaging with the yard and will revert.

Can you advise me if you will be coming to the South West any time soon as we have an incredibly low mortality rate, under 1,000 as of 28/04/2020, with CV-19 and would like to keep it that way.

 

[RJJ]

Can you advise me if you will be coming to the South West any time soon as we have an incredibly low mortality rate, under 1,000 as of 28/04/2020, with CV-19 and would like to keep it that way.

I won't be doing that but I can assure you that (1) several hundred deaths indicates that infection has already been widespread; you have probably been exposed and may have been infected (2) the NHS England data indicates that where I am "peaked" several days before where you are, and also that deaths per million have been lower here than there, which illustrates (a) lockdown hasn't been effective in stopping the spread from where I am to where you are (b) there is greater probability that you are infected today, than me (3) I haven't left home for five weeks.

I would be more worried if you came here, except that I am not worried at all as long as you act with reasonable excuse and follow social distancing.

 

[jordanbasset]

The other argument is to those who's boats are a long drive , and is that the issue really here , there seems plenty of people very close to their boats and can easily follow social distancing but being denied access , this lumping boats and marinas as caravan parks and holiday homes., is wrong in many levels and common sense and good guidance is needed

Playing devils advocate if boat owners can access their boats why can't caravan owners access their caravans. Should they be to drive to their caravan, check it's okay, see if there is any leaks. Give it a clean, perhaps get the bird crap off, Maybe have a sit in it, perhaps put a deck chair outside, after all caravans are farther apart than boats in marinas. If they are in the countryside go for a nice walk, less people about than perhaps where they normally live.

The point of this post is that most people can make a special case that what they do is okay, the problem is when everyone makes a special case

 

[[70521]]

I won't be doing that but I can assure you that (1) several hundred deaths indicates that infection has already been widespread; you have probably been exposed and may have been infected (2) the NHS England data indicates that where I am "peaked" several days before where you are, and also that deaths per million have been lower here than there, which illustrates (a) lockdown hasn't been effective in stopping the spread from where I am to where you are (b) there is greater probability that you are infected today, than me (3) I haven't left home for five weeks.

I would be more worried if you came here, except that I am not worried at all as long as you act with reasonable excuse and follow social distancing.

Delighted that you will not be visiting the south west.

Totally agree that the infection is widespread but is mainly centered in the cities, usually with airports and I suspect a lot of people who enjoy skiing.

I am delighted to report that I have not been infected, but know people who have. Their symptoms ranged from "a mild flu with a bloody awful cough", "the flu from hell" to "five weeks of hell and I was almost admitted to hospital".

I'm not convinced the published NHS data tells us anything as they are not count anything useful. I say that after a working life looking at vast amounts of data as a safety engineer.

Delighted to hear you have not left the front door. It is hard not being able to get out. Several friends are sheilded because of high risk. Personally I had Whooping Cough last year that took nine months to shift and do wish to protect my lungs and allow me that very, very long voyage before is shuffle off this mortal coil.

 

[RJJ]

Playing devils advocate if boat owners can access their boats why can't caravan owners access their caravans. Should they be to drive to their caravan, check it's okay, see if there is any leaks. Give it a clean, perhaps get the bird crap off, Maybe have a sit in it, perhaps put a deck chair outside, after all caravans are farther apart than boats in marinas. If they are in the countryside go for a nice walk, less people about than perhaps where they normally live.

The point of this post is that most people can make a special case that what they do is okay, the problem is when everyone makes a special case

From my personal perspective, if they have strong reasons to go then yes. If there's a serious maintenance task to be done then yes, particularly if that might pertain to severe depreciation of the asset or safety of subsequent use. That's been the principle applied by the CAA. Frankly if they then out their feet up for a cuppa, so what? They must act reasonably and maintain social distancing.

Caravan parks ARE stated as a special case for two specific reasons: they are associated with accommodation and also with "prolonged social contact". There's no reason for boatyards to be grouped with caravan parks, other than discretionary choices by the boatyard.

 

[jordanbasset]

Caravan parks ARE stated as a special case for two specific reasons: they are associated with accommodation and also with "prolonged social contact". There's no reason for boatyards to be grouped with caravan parks, other than discretionary choices by the boatyard.

Really, in the year we had a caravan one thing both myself and my wife noted was people seem to socialise a lot less than when we were on the boat. Maybe because a lot of caravanners were older and so just wanted a bit of peace and quiet and their own space, I don't know, what I do know is that we were often on other boats for drinks when we lived aboard.
I also think most boats have accomodation
The Government advised that marinas should be closed in line with caravan parks, it was not specifically mentioned in the law but it does seem reasonable to me. Certainly I agree urgent maintenance should be allowed and would be a reasonable thing to do

 

[RJJ]

Really, in the year we had a caravan one thing both myself and my wife noted was people seem to socialise a lot less than when we were on the boat. Maybe because a lot of caravanners were older and so just wanted a bit of peace and quiet and their own space, I don't know, what I do know is that we were often on other boats for drinks when we lived aboard.
I also think most boats have accomodation
The Government advised that marinas should be closed in line with caravan parks, it was not specifically mentioned in the law but it does seem reasonable to me. Certainly I agree urgent maintenance should be allowed and would be a reasonable thing to do

Marinas, not boatyards which is my immediate concern.

 

[jordanbasset]

Marinas, not boatyards which is my immediate concern.

Okay we are at cross purposes, Flying goose' post and my reply to him was specifically about the comparison of caravan parks and marinas, when you replied to my post I thought you were also talking about the subject we were discussing, missed that you were just talking about boat yards. I assume you think that marinas and caravan parks should be grouped together?

 

[Tomahawk]

I see no logical reason why caravan parks should not be able to accept visitors...

One household per van.. Indeed most often it’s just two people (elderly) in any one van. Distancing is almost automatic by nature of the shape of caravans..

 

[Denek]

I went to B&Q yesterday. Click and collect for some items I need for the house. I consider these essential. We were part way through a renovation before the lockdown and things have been uncomfortable to say the least. My point here though is that the queue outside was about 50 people long. I wore a mask ( used for working on the boat not stolen from the NHS. ) plus gloves and I carry sanitizer gel. I cannot see how this can be allowed when going to our boats to check them over is not. Ok I do live 40 miles away which could be an issue if I broke down or had an accident but I think that’s a small risk of coming into contact with others. In the boatyard it’s very easy to practice social distancing. My boat is on the hard so no chance to go sailing anyway.
I am however a law abiding citizen ( mostly?) and so will not break the law. At least not at this stage.

 

[ryanroberts]

One advantage of working for a taiwanese company is that they sent all their euro / us employees a large stock of masks early on as they are good at this sort of stuff

 

[RJJ]

Okay we are at cross purposes, Flying goose' post and my reply to him was specifically about the comparison of caravan parks and marinas, when you replied to my post I thought you were also talking about the subject we were discussing, missed that you were just talking about boat yards. I assume you think that marinas and caravan parks should be grouped together?

I don't think they should. The latter are closed because they are accommodation and associated with "prolonged close social contact" per government guidance.

I think in both cases maintenance should be allowed, subject to reasonable excuse and social distancing being observable. If people are cheek-by-jowl, then it seems not overly complicated to allow people access on alternate days, maybe. The presumption should be towards life returning to normal with sensible precautions, rather than banning everything because it's easy for politicians.

What "should" apply (in my opinion) and what "does" apply are of course different.

 

[jordanbasset]

You are probably right and marinas and caravan parks should not be grouped together. It is much easier to socially distance in a caravan on a caravan park than in a boat in a marina. No walk along fairly narrow pontoon passing people and their boats at close distance and caravans spread farther apart are the two obvious things

 

[Graham376]

You are probably right and marinas and caravan parks should not be grouped together. It is much easier to socially distance in a caravan on a caravan park than in a boat in a marina. No walk along fairly narrow pontoon passing people and their boats at close distance and caravans spread farther apart are the two obvious things

Not so sure that social distancing is easier with caravans. Around this area, several thousand people would be heading out of cities to their caravans in a low virus area and a large number use the local food stores as well as the beaches, they don't stay locked up in the caravans doing work which many boat owners want to do.

 

[FlyingGoose]

I just want to anchor off a nice wee uninhabited Island with only sheep for company,hope no Caravans Join me (Dam there goes social isolation in peace )