Letter to RYA re closures

[JumbleDuck]

I'm saying, stop being selfish and stay at home. If you're bored at home, go volunteer to do something useful.

I just said that I'm not going to my boat. I've left the house once in the past twelve days, to visit two shops. Why are you accusing me of being selfish? You at least are allowed to go to people's boats - you're not worried about losing money if they work on them themselves, are you? Because that really would be selfish.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Many of you are delusional.

No, many of us think that it will be necessary in due course to adapt to the presence of COVID-19, and that will involve taking intelligent and informed decisions about our activities. Have you really just taken a long haul flight?

 

[obmij]

If everyone had the same selfish attitude (many do), then everyone would be out and about doing what they normally do, apart from the dead people and key workers.

You've quoted my post and labelled my attitude selfish.

For the record, I go to work & when not at work remain at home apart from daily exercise and the occasional food shop. I have a different view to you, which to sum up is sympathetic to those who are unfortunately unable to work at this difficult time.

 

[Graham376]

Are you equally concerned about allotment holders? Are they selfish too?

Most allotments are local to homes and don't have shared toilet/shower facilities. I doubt many people drive 50 miles or more to pull a few weeds, whereas many of the boats in Conwy marina (my nearest) are owned by folks who travel from greater Manchester area, 80 miles or more away. I'm sure that's the case with many south coast marinas as well.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Anybody whose work is available and can't do it at home is supposed to be "out and about doing what they normally do".

No they are not, they can go to work, but that's it, no additional "out and about", above what everyone is else allowed to do.

I'm still able to work. I won't work on liveaboard boats or boats where the owner is onboard and i won't work on boats where anyone has been onboard in the last three days. I, and the small group of people who also work in the marinas or live there/stuck there, would rather other people didn't come and play on their boats, risking bringing the virus here.

The person at the supermarket checkout would probably prefer that people stayed at home as much as possible, reducing the risk of giving them Corona viruse to take home to their families.

The NHS staff would probably prefer it if as many people as possible didn't catch Corona virus and expose them and their families to it.

etc
etc
etc

 

[Praxinoscope]

Going to your boat or going out on it are not essential activities, why is that many seemingly intelligent people on this forum can't seem to get it into their heads that much as we consider it an important part of our lives boating is for the majority a pastime/hobby and is no different to that of many other activities, people are a bit like sheep if they see one person wandering down to their boat and taking it out they will do the same, soon all the attempts to quarantine this virus will have been wasted.
Just stop thinking about 'me, me' and think of the wider community. Put up with the restrictions and hope that they can start to be relaxed soon.

 

[Laysula]

The problem is not the marina. I'm sure that a few locals who have walked down or driven a couple of miles is not going to cause a problem. It is the bloke that lives a hundred miles away that will insist that because some people can go and see their boat then so should he and will drive down with his family from their city home bringing their germs with them. Yes I'm disappointed I can't go aboard even though it is a 20 minute walk away, but that's the way it is.
The more we stick to the rules the quicker it will all be over and we can get back to normality.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I just said that I'm not going to my boat. I've left the house once in the past twelve days, to visit two shops. Why are you accusing me of being selfish? You at least are allowed to go to people's boats - you're not worried about losing money if they work on them themselves, are you? Because that really would be selfish.

I didn't accuse you of anything, you asked me what i was saying in post #7, i clarified that and post #7 was not aimed at anyone in particular

You told Graham376 {quote]It really isn't helpful to fling insults like "selfish" around [/quote]

But you think your comments above are acceptable ?

I am allowed to go to peoples boats, to work on them. I'd prefer to earn my own money, rather than claim from the Countries economy, thank's very much. If everyone stopped working we'd be in five times the mess we are in already.

To suggest that i'm advocating staying at home so people have to pay me to do the work on their boat is unnaceptable.

 

[ryanroberts]

Evidence seems to be looking like outdoor transmission is very rare, so there might be a chance to relax the sailing if not the boozing afterward restrictions.

 

[RobF]

It seems to me that we all have different perceptions on risk. And we are all prepared to accept different levels of risk.
If your risk attitude is higher than mine, then you're 'selfish'
If your risk attitude is lower than mine, then you're 'over-zealous'.
Reminds me of the driving analogy where people who drive faster than me are lunatics and those who drive slower than me are slow-coaches.

Statistically, I am unlikely to die from corona-virus due to my age and lack of underlying health conditions (particularly cardiac or respiratory ). It's my suspcicion that I'm more likely to die driving to my boat than I am from the coronvirus (but this is just a suspicion). This shapes my risk appetite to coronavirus as I know the risks of driving to my boat and have accepted them .

Whilst I am a strong advocate of following government guidance, it's clear that the government guidance will be changing in future as we learn more about the virus and as we improve our risk management of it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Most allotments are local to homes and don't have shared toilet/shower facilities. I doubt many people drive 50 miles or more to pull a few weeds, whereas many of the boats in Conwy marina (my nearest) are owned by folks who travel from greater Manchester area, 80 miles or more away. I'm sure that's the case with many south coast marinas as well.

Of course, and I certainly don't think it would be sensible for people to travel any significant distance to work on a boat. However, when boats are as close as hand as allotments, I can't see any reason to ban working on them. It's the travel and social distancing which matter, not the activity at the other end.

Going to your boat or going out on it are not essential activities, why is that many seemingly intelligent people on this forum can't seem to get it into their heads ...

I haven't seen anyone says that these are essential activities, simply that where the risks are minimal it would be reasonable to do them. We're not going to be stuck on "essential" for ever, and as things relax it will increasingly be principles which matter.

Tip: Whenever I wonder why seemingly intelligent people aren't doing or saying what I expect, I consider the possibility that they are, in fact, intelligent and that I am missing something. That usually turns out to be the case.

I didn't accuse you of anything ...

I'm saying, stop being selfish and stay at home. If you're bored at home, go volunteer to do something useful.

To suggest that i'm advocating staying at home so people have to pay me to do the work on their boat is unnaceptable.

I'm suggesting nothing. Simply pointing out that as the only person here with a clear financial interest in having boat owners barred from working on their boats you are not in a strong position to accuse them of "selfishness" for wanting to do so. Just as the only person who wants the discussion ended because people don't always agree with him is not in a strong position to accuse others of "childishness".

 

[JumbleDuck]

Evidence seems to be looking like outdoor transmission is very rare ...

And transmission by contact with infected surfaces seems to be at the moment a hypothetical possibility only.

 

[Graham376]

Evidence seems to be looking like outdoor transmission is very rare, so there might be a chance to relax the sailing if not the boozing afterward restrictions.

Outdoor transmission may be rare but, I think most would agree that those in areas with more cases are more likely to catch it and pass it on. Look at this as an example, which also applies to other rural/seaside areas -

As of 25th April, BBC say North Wales has a total of 93 Covid deaths - Coronavirus: 23 more deaths brings total to 774

The main catchment areas for visitors to North Wales are Greater Manchester and Liverpool & Cheshire, which show 5,758 hospital alone deaths in just the period 15th - 24th April . Coronavirus deaths mapped: North of England seeing most fatalities

I personally don't want to see an invasion into North Wales (where I live) from those areas and I'm sure the same applies to the south coast, Devon and Cornwall etc.

 

[black mercury]

Problem is you may have virus and not know it, potentially spreading it even though you feel fine.
Marina where I am has closed and turned off people's access fobs. I did need to get work things from boat after first week of lockdown (I really needed tools and multimeter) and manager let me down but had to phone him as soon as I arrived. Sensible enough. Haven't been back since as there is no need for me to check boat. Trust staff to do that, they are even sending photographs of people's boats and sending them via email.
The problem is they have also closed marina to contractors. This includes the boatyard which is independent of the marina. The boatyard are unable to lift or launch boats as they have no access to them. This should be the yard's busiest time with the majority of boats being lifted out between April and June. The yard are now couple of months behind if they were to reopen. So even if marina was to reopen in couple of weeks time, there is going to be a delay in lifting out of maybe two months at present. As you can see owners are getting understandably worried about their anodes if they are now overdue. Yes, you could hang one over the side but you can't get to the boat.
I have no problem with closing marina to boat owners, but I think it is wrong to not allow contractors access. Most owners have keys hidden somewhere, so shouldn't be an issue for owners with yard moving boats to get lifted, in fact that's what they normally do anyway.

 

[Graham376]

Of course, and I certainly don't think it would be sensible for people to travel any significant distance to work on a boat. However, when boats are as close as hand as allotments, I can't see any reason to ban working on them. It's the travel and social distancing which matter, not the activity at the other end.

If someone's boat is within normal exercise area local to home and the marina kept all shared facilities closed, then I see little risk in that, possibly less than supermarket shopping but, as we've seen around here, some idiots think it's OK to drive many miles from cities to exercise on the beach or in Snowdonia.
A line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[Nina Lucia]

Hi all. I have just sent the following to the RYA. We have a proud history in the UK of being considered free to do what is not specifically outlawed, and of laws that are (in design and interpretation) reasonable and proportionate. I sent it to

cruising@rya.org.uk

Feel free to jump on and copy/paste.


Hello

I'm an RYA member writing to express my concern about the disproportionate closure of boatyards, specifically (personally) XXXX marina at YYYY . I think some revised guidance is essential and would appreciate the RYA's forthright support.

Ministers have made clear this week that many people have interpreted the guidelines over-zealously. I believe the RYA can issue revised guidance that considers paragraph 6(1) of the Regulation to be binding. Paragraph 6(2) is advisory, to the extent that it indicates what "excuses" might be included. It does not state that the list of excuses is exhaustive; it should be read as "a reasonable excuse includes but is not limited to...". Equally, boaters and the RYA could consider access to our precious assets to fall within the category of paragraph 6(2) (m), avoidance of harm.

Practically, such a short and quickly-prepared law cannot possibly account explicitly for all scenarios (or reasonable excuses), particularly minority activities like boat ownership where few ministers or civil servants have any knowledge.

Boatyard visits by owners and contractors are both minimal risk (from a transmission perspective) and essential to employment of our industry's professionals. The government has explicitly stated that construction work is permitted; by comparison, boat maintenance involves far fewer people operating at far lower densities. Owners and contractors visiting their boats can easily do so within social distancing guidelines. There are millions of people visiting busy supermarkets and other stores; and passing each other at crowded bridges, junctions and park gates en route to their daily constitutional exercise. If I drive to the boat for some essential maintenance, I will have far less human proximity than if I stay at home and go for a walk.

I would urgently ask the RYA please to
(1) publish guidelines encouraging boatyards and marinas, while not permitting recreational sailing, to facilitate limited access to boatowners and contractors wishing to attend, protect and maintain our boats. Discretion can be left to yard operators in how to deliver this within guidelines, but suggestions could include (a) allowing access to a limited number of owners on staggered days of the week (b) allowing no use of toilet facilities, which would itself encourage brief visits only
(2) engage the government for formal recognition of the above guidelines. This would not need to go through any legislative process, which would require scarce time and resource and could be misinterpreted by the media. It could take the form of a "letter of comfort" to the RYA and the gist communicated to the marina and boatyard industry.
(3) seek for broader maintenance-related access in the earliest phases of any relaxation of lockdown, recognising that boatyard activities pose minimal transmission risk, certainly far less than construction activity which is explicitly permitted, while providing essential employment to a significant number of people.

Yours sincerely

I have also send two emails to RYA, no answers yet. Allotments are open, I can't see they are safer than boat at the swinging mooring or even boat yard

 

[JumbleDuck]

If someone's boat is within normal exercise area local to home and the marina kept all shared facilities closed, then I see little risk in that, possibly less than supermarket shopping but, as we've seen around here, some idiots think it's OK to drive many miles from cities to exercise on the beach or in Snowdonia.
A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Even driving to the beach or the hills wouldn't really be a problem if only a few people did it. I wouldn't be surprised if the lockdown is relaxed by distance, so first we'll be able to do what we want within ten miles of home, then twenty, then fifty and so on. Subject to group size limits as well. of course.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

A line has to be drawn somewhere.

A line has been drawn: People should stay at home except for essential shopping, some physical exercise (as fitness is seen to been a benefit risisting the desease) and some categories of work.

That's where the line is. Going to your boat, holiday home, caravan, golf course, etc are on the other side of the line.

Just because you want the line drawn somewhere else, doesn't mean a line hasn't been drawn.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm suggesting nothing. Simply pointing out that as the only person here with a clear financial interest in having boat owners barred from working on their boats you are not in a strong position to accuse them of "selfishness" for wanting to do so. Just as the only person who wants the discussion ended because people don't always agree with him is not in a strong position to accuse others of "childishness".

What a load of insulting drivel. But it's not unheard of on here for people of low intelect to resort to slanderous insults.

I stand to gain nothing by people who normally work on their own boats having to stay at home, they'll just wait until restrictions are lifted and carry on working on their boats as normal.

I'm not looking for any extra work, thanks all the same, i can't take on all the work i'm offered as it is.

Besides, if was trying to get more work, i'd hardly be likely to be posting wiring schematics on here and giving people step by step guidance on how to wire their own boats.

 

[Momac]

Just because you want the line drawn somewhere else, doesn't mean a line hasn't been drawn.

That's a good way of summing up the present position.
Lets hope the line can be moved a bit in another few weeks time.

Lets hang on to that hope - Otherwise the signs are we are all going a bit mad.