Letter to RYA re closures

[RJJ]

Hi all. I have just sent the following to the RYA. We have a proud history in the UK of being considered free to do what is not specifically outlawed, and of laws that are (in design and interpretation) reasonable and proportionate. I sent it to

cruising@rya.org.uk

Feel free to jump on and copy/paste.

Hello

I'm an RYA member writing to express my concern about the disproportionate closure of boatyards, specifically (personally) XXXX marina at YYYY . I think some revised guidance is essential and would appreciate the RYA's forthright support.

Ministers have made clear this week that many people have interpreted the guidelines over-zealously. I believe the RYA can issue revised guidance that considers paragraph 6(1) of the Regulation to be binding. Paragraph 6(2) is advisory, to the extent that it indicates what "excuses" might be included. It does not state that the list of excuses is exhaustive; it should be read as "a reasonable excuse includes but is not limited to...". Equally, boaters and the RYA could consider access to our precious assets to fall within the category of paragraph 6(2) (m), avoidance of harm.

Practically, such a short and quickly-prepared law cannot possibly account explicitly for all scenarios (or reasonable excuses), particularly minority activities like boat ownership where few ministers or civil servants have any knowledge.

Boatyard visits by owners and contractors are both minimal risk (from a transmission perspective) and essential to employment of our industry's professionals. The government has explicitly stated that construction work is permitted; by comparison, boat maintenance involves far fewer people operating at far lower densities. Owners and contractors visiting their boats can easily do so within social distancing guidelines. There are millions of people visiting busy supermarkets and other stores; and passing each other at crowded bridges, junctions and park gates en route to their daily constitutional exercise. If I drive to the boat for some essential maintenance, I will have far less human proximity than if I stay at home and go for a walk.

I would urgently ask the RYA please to
(1) publish guidelines encouraging boatyards and marinas, while not permitting recreational sailing, to facilitate limited access to boatowners and contractors wishing to attend, protect and maintain our boats. Discretion can be left to yard operators in how to deliver this within guidelines, but suggestions could include (a) allowing access to a limited number of owners on staggered days of the week (b) allowing no use of toilet facilities, which would itself encourage brief visits only
(2) engage the government for formal recognition of the above guidelines. This would not need to go through any legislative process, which would require scarce time and resource and could be misinterpreted by the media. It could take the form of a "letter of comfort" to the RYA and the gist communicated to the marina and boatyard industry.
(3) seek for broader maintenance-related access in the earliest phases of any relaxation of lockdown, recognising that boatyard activities pose minimal transmission risk, certainly far less than construction activity which is explicitly permitted, while providing essential employment to a significant number of people.

Yours sincerely

 

[Lucky Duck]

They will also need to ensure any change in guidance is passed on to the various harbour authorities who have seen fit to ban all water based activities from SUPs onwards.

Speaking to my boatyard yesterday one of the issues they face is that the harbour master will not allow owners to move their boats to their summer moorings.

 

[RJJ]

They will also need to ensure any change in guidance is passed on to the various harbour authorities who gave seen fit to ban all water based activities from SUPs onwards.

Speaking to my boatyard yesterday one of the issues they face is that the harbour master will not allow owners to move their boats to their summer moorings.

That's absurd. Opening up thousands of disputes over fees and exposing customers to thousands in extra berthing, for the microscopic risk of accidents or disease transmission involving experienced boaters making short journeys in familiar waters.

I wasn't planning to launch until May, perhaps I need to be writing to the HM next.

I do believe that one letter gets binned; a handful gets noticed.

 

[[70521]]

On Friday I learnt that the father of an ex-colleague had died with CV-19 as a comorbidity, today I learnt that the mother of a friend of my daughter's has just got over CV-19 after five weeks at home. Why would anybody want to put themselves at greater risk?

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Why would anybody want to put themselves at greater risk?

Because people wanting to drive down and work on their boats are not only special cases, but due to their innate intelligence and hazard awareness pose no threat to anyone.

But all those walkers, canoeists, stand up paddleboarders, second home owners, golfers, private pilots, sun bathers, surfers, bird watchers, rowers and wild water swimmers are anti-social, germ spreading scum that should be locked up.

 

[Graham376]

On Friday I learnt that the father of an ex-colleague had died with CV-19 as a comorbidity, today I learnt that the mother of a friend of my daughter's has just got over CV-19 after five weeks at home. Why would anybody want to put themselves at greater risk?

Because they're not thinking it through. Boat owners allowed back, who's the next special case - in their own selfish minds? Too many people thinking they're not a danger to themselves or anyone else.

 

[PaulRainbow]

My wife, sister and eldest daughter are all key workers, along with tens of thousands of others they are working to keep the general population going, risking their health, indeed, lives in doing so. Often working for low wages, or minimum wages, these people are still at work, whilst half the people they are risking their well being for are sat at home, collecting 80% of their normal wages, moaning and groaning because they can't go out and play.

How about if all of the key workers say "sod this, let's call in sick and go sailing" ?

What are you going to eat ?

Who's going to run the power stations, man the fuel pumps, operate the marina, etc etc etc ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Because they're not thinking it through. Boat owners allowed back, who's the next special case - in their own selfish minds? Too many people thinking they're not a danger to themselves or anyone else.

It really isn't helpful to fling insults like "selfish" around. Working on allotments is not only allowed, it's encouraged, and it is hard to see how working in a boatyard is any more hazardous. Or, for that matter, any less necessary, since no allotment holder is going to starve to death if the nettles take over for a year.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My wife, sister and eldest daughter are all key workers, along with tens of thousands of others they are working to keep the general population going, risking their health, indeed, lives in doing so. Often working for low wages, or minimum wages, these people are still at work, whilst half the people they are risking their well being for are sat at home, collecting 80% of their normal wages, moaning and groaning because they can't go out and play.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying that all workers should be allowed some relaxation, or only key workers? Have you any evidence that those who would like to work on their boats are all furloughed?

Note: I have no plans to visit my boat for the forseeable future because she is 100 miles and a ferry (currently barred to me anyway) away. If she was ten miles away in the local club's yard I do not think I would endanger myself or anyone else significantly by going to see her.

 

[obmij]

For a lockdown during a supposedly lethal pandemic there is a lot of activity taking place.

Obviously there are the 'key' workers, (army, NHS etc) then there are the 'essential' workers (an exceptionally big tent) and then there are the workers who's employers consider it worthwhile remaining open and can ensure adequate distancing.

Work has not been prohibited

For all of the above, myself included, life is pretty much going on as normal. Go to work, come home, do a bit of shopping & go for a cycle or walk.

Personally can't see the harm in someone who's been furloughed (or who's job is no longer viable) getting out of the house & doing a bit of work on their boat. The will almost certainly have less interactions than those who are still working.

 

[Graham376]

It really isn't helpful to fling insults like "selfish" around. Working on allotments is not only allowed, it's encouraged, and it is hard to see how working in a boatyard is any more hazardous. Or, for that matter, any less necessary, since no allotment holder is going to starve to death if the nettles take over for a year.

I think selfish well describes many people's attitudes, fed up with the number of people who think they are a special case and in their own minds can justify travelling to boats. I would like to get back to mine or just meet up with a few friends. What happens if everyone with a sport heads out or, caravan dwellers (thousands of them all around the coast) decide to check the caravans, social distancing will no longer exist. 20,000+ people have died so far in UK with more to follow and thousands of survivors will have severe, maybe life long, after effects.

 

[PaulRainbow]

For a lockdown during a supposedly lethal pandemic there is a lot of activity taking place.

Supposedly ?

Do you think the 20,000 + reported deaths are not true ?

Do you think that it's a lie that NHS staff are dying, trying to keep others alive ?

Obviously there are the 'key' workers, (army, NHS etc) then there are the 'essential' workers (an exceptionally big tent) and then there are the workers who's employers consider it worthwhile remaining open and can ensure adequate distancing.

Work has not been prohibited

For all of the above, myself included, life is pretty much going on as normal. Go to work, come home, do a bit of shopping & go for a cycle or walk.

Personally can't see the harm in someone who's been furloughed (or who's job is no longer viable) getting out of the house & doing a bit of work on their boat. The will almost certainly have less interactions than those who are still working.

If everyone had the same selfish attitude (many do), then everyone would be out and about doing what they normally do, apart from the dead people and key workers.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying that all workers should be allowed some relaxation, or only key workers? Have you any evidence that those who would like to work on their boats are all furloughed?

Note: I have no plans to visit my boat for the forseeable future because she is 100 miles and a ferry (currently barred to me anyway) away. If she was ten miles away in the local club's yard I do not think I would endanger myself or anyone else significantly by going to see her.

I'm saying, stop being selfish and stay at home. If you're bored at home, go volunteer to do something useful.

 

[rotrax]

Many of you are delusional.

Just back from NZ where the lockdown is FAR, FAR more severe and arrests/fines are not unknown for breaking the rules.

Random checks on motorists and those taking exercise - no driving to an exercise site there.

I am really pissed that I have not had access to my Kiwi boat while there and now no access to my UK boat.

Unlike many, I am prepared to put the health of the many above my personal requirements.

What part of 'This is a very contagious disease, spead by travelling and contact with others and communal spaces. It regularly kills' dont you understand?

Nearly all NZ's cases came from the infected travelling in NZ or entering the country from other countries.

Stay home, stay safe.

IMHO, of course.

 

[Trident]

As someone stuck at a marina as I was in transit when lockdown came and have no UK based home to return to, I am very pleased the marinas are closed . This of course doesn't stop people turning up every day despite being told repeatedly not to and getting a 30% discount as some compensation. They come to check or work on their boat and touch the gates, they key pads, the heads doors etc. Not one has ever thought that they should bring disinfectant spray to clean up after themselves and not risk others. And there are 3-400 boats here. How will these selfish people coordinate to ensure all 3-400 don't turn up at once. Their presence even alone may mean a contractor is unable to work until the berth holder is gone. So their already reduced income is further set back so that you can play with your toy.

The UK Government has been very relaxed and tried to treat us like sensible people - try living like the Italians or Spanish have recently - but give people an inch and they take an ell as the saying goes. You'd probably like to then pop out for a sail and if there's a problem you'll only risk 6 or 8 lifeboatmen and maybe one or two paramedics , perhaps only a handful of nurses and doctors; so no big deal.

Go for a walk, drive somewhere nearby but pretty to walk, all these things are fine. However, gathering points like marinas, sporting venues, pubs and restaurants are obviously not sensible places to be.

I will look forward however to seeing how QHM Portsmouth responds to being pressured by the RYA to let sailors out in their waters - I suspect it would be unsuitable language for the VHF. However, I suspect the RYA will take the mature attitude and ignore your plea

 

[Momac]

And there are 3-400 boats here. How will these selfish people coordinate to ensure all 3-400 don't turn up at once.

I think that could be manged in theory - visit by prior appointment and agreed time only. Restrict time on site.
Unfortunately some peole are already flouting the rules which spoils it for those who would be happy with a quick visit (say half an hour max)

 

[superheat6k]

I think the OP's letter is very sensible and reasonable. Having read the Regulations through several times I cannot fathom out where or under what interpretation closing all the boat yards and marinas is a requirement.

Working on one's own boat quite alone is a reasonable form of exercise, one of the stated reasons within the regulations for being out of your home.

I can fully understand not taking boats out is sensible, and is being severely dealt with in regards to the tellings off the HM will give on the Hamble, but it is still only an advisory, I understand. Very few are breaking this 'rule'.

Now, and as mentioned here, one can work on his allotment (NB recreation / exercise), but (although not stated in the regulations) not on his boat, yet both situations as far as transmission risk are concerned are virtually identical. Risk of harm from other factors (road accident, etc.) are also fairly identical. The current rules have also been stated that driving to a place of exercise a short distance is reasonable.

For the time being I am continuing to observe the ban on attendance requested by my own yard, but would support some level of commonsense being applied more generally.

Edit: I have also now written to the RYA with a similar request to the OP. If they do not respond or take up the idea then I see little point in continuing, and at least an opportunity to save £50 of perhaps unnecessary / nil gain boating expenditure this year.

 

[RJJ]

As an economist and mathematician, I strongly disagree with the rather emotional responses some of you have offered. They are all irrational and scientifically incorrect but there are plenty of other forums to discuss epidemiology, so I won't go into it here. But I will comment, once, on your various objections.

I am very sorry for those who have lost relatives, and that doesn't prove that lockdown or slight relaxation thereof makes an iota of difference to the sadly deceased or to anyone else in future. I certainly don't agree that if I go to the boat I am putting "myself" at risk, or the person that I might pass a few metres away from in the yard. In fact no element of lockdown has much to do with individual risk; it's entirely about collective risk, and to make statements about people "putting themselves at risk" is a 100pc misunderstanding of the situation.

Particularly in context of those of us lucky enough to be younger and healthier, where the risk to ourselves, even if infected and even on the most conservative estimates, so small as to be barely measurable.

My request to the RYA, the yard and the Government is to act proportionately. That should be the watchword of all policymaking.

In terms of collective risk, as I said in my email, there is less risk attached to what I propose than to the behaviours that are underway. If I go to the boat, I am entirely confident I have reduced the transmission risk to myself and to others compared to if I stay at home and, like millions of others, take 30 minutes to walk around a moderately busy park.

As for whether I touch the tap or not...maybe allow yard operators and boatowners to do something sensible? Like, tape off the taps and tell everyone to bring a flask? Surely the country that cracked Enigma and invented the bouncing bomb can manage local solutions to brainteasers like that? Gates? - like, I started pressing the pedestrian crossing button with my elbow. Millions have yet to adopt my prudent behaviours....and as it happens I don't need to pass any gates to get to the boat, so chill on that one. my point being if we are expected to act prudently outside the boatyard (e.g. not going visiting) we can work out how to act prudently within it...and if not, surely you should question the effectiveness of the behaviour of millions, not a (comparatively) tiny number of boaters?

I don't see the point of making comparison to SUPers, or adding the rider "you'll go out for a sail next". It's very peculiar to write "the government is treating us sensibly" while suggesting we can't be given any liberties because we'd be assumed to take more. You obviously missed the bit where I said (in my original email) we wouldn't be expecting to go sailing.

Anyway, I live in hope that common sense may prevail, and will try to avoid the temptation to respond to any more of you finger-waggers. To be clear, I haven't been to the boat yet and I am unlikely to do so without agreement from the yard. I also live in hope that some people might support my proposals and write to the RYA. Don't bother with social media.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think selfish well describes many people's attitudes, fed up with the number of people who think they are a special case and in their own minds can justify travelling to boats. I would like to get back to mine or just meet up with a few friends. What happens if everyone with a sport heads out or, caravan dwellers (thousands of them all around the coast) decide to check the caravans, social distancing will no longer exist. 20,000+ people have died so far in UK with more to follow and thousands of survivors will have severe, maybe life long, after effects.

Are you equally concerned about allotment holders? Are they selfish too?

 

[JumbleDuck]

If everyone had the same selfish attitude (many do), then everyone would be out and about doing what they normally do, apart from the dead people and key workers.

Anybody whose work is available and can't do it at home is supposed to be "out and about doing what they normally do".