Legality or Board of Trade view on Electronic Charts

Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

Taking UKHO as an example (and situation as last I know) they provide weekly updates both on CD and online (either directly over the internet or via email attachment, which is, of course, not a problem to most SOLAS vessels even at sea).

John
 
Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

Just so.

If people have followed the adjacent discussion, they will see that SOLAS ships MUST be navigated on official charts.
 
Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

I've missed that. Which discussion is that?
 
Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

Is at the end of Mirelle's post earlier in this thread - it is the post that is long and starts off "Electronic Charts" as a sub heading and then later covers IMO and Gov't re hydrographic data.

John
 
Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

Thanks. I've been musing over the issues and wondering whether it is acceptable for third parties to make and sell unoffical charts for non-SOLAS use. After all, this is a life-safety issue and a single incident with a yacht could realistically hazard 10 lives if you include the crew and rescue attempts.

Certainly C-Map's cartridges have a huge number of errors, are uncorrectible and the cartography is sometimes badly offset from the actual GPS position by tens, up to one hundred metres (my experience is mainly SE Iberian peninsular from Gib to Mahon). The buoys tend to be in the right places but the bits of solid land can be way out, which we discover when tied up. If they can get one thing wrong they can get anything wrong. I would never rely on a chartplotter in close quarters - if non-visual I only accept the radar as a safe aid.

Incidentally, I have checked this using the internal GPS on my Navman, using DGPS and non DGPS as well as my old 1999 Raytheon GPS head and the new 2006 Raymarine head that I fitted in June this year so we are not talking about a GPS issue as far as I can see.

Suppose yachtsmen demanded official ECs in future, using appropriate affordable hardware. Would this be practicable and affordable?
 
Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

It is certainly practicable and affordable now if one uses a notebook or other PC but one of the requirements of official EC's is that they have to be able to be corrected. I don't think there would be any technical difficulty in using a cartridge type medium for the charts (eg SD card) which could go into a plotter designed to take them but then be able to be corrected on a PC (say) using updates issued on CD. But as far as I know it is not done (I stand to be corrected on that as I have not had occasion to look for such). There may be some impediment regarding security of the chart data on a rewritable card type medium and concerns about copy protection but I would not have thought so.

Regarding cost, we use an ECS on a notebook designed for small naval and commercial vessels (and pleasure too, but it is very plain vanilla aimed at people who just want to navigate from A to B rather than have a toy to play with /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) and its price is well under the equivalent of GBP200. It is actually a stripped down version of the same company's type approved ECDIS for use on SOLAS vessels (and I know of some SOLAS vessels using the stripped down version, but as Mirelle has said it must then not be the primary system).

Because aimed at larger vessels it does not accept magnetic compass input, just the gyro HDT sentence, which of course ones instruments may give too if variation is on the bus as well but is then a derived true heading rather than a gyro one - with it, in the end one has to work in True. Something which would easily be fixed if sufficient recreational demand, I would have thought.

But, as you are probably aware, there are other ECS's aimed at the pleasure market that do the official charts, but they are mostly all very much more expensive. I mention the above just to show that it is possible to produce cheap ECS's.

I am not sure what the UKHO prices are for electronic charts and our own case is somewhat not comparable as government here has for many years made the hydrographic data an asset of the nation so for official charts all we pay for are the costs of production of the chart itself through to the chart agent's margin. For the electronic ones those costs are very low so we end up paying about the equivalent of a little over GBP20 for the whole of the portfolio here - around 150 charts which also includes those of a number of the Pacific Islands plus the small scale charts for the whole of the Pacific. USA is, of course, somewhat similar in policy.

So it can be done very, very cheaply, one aspect is a government policy matter to do with the cost of the data and the other is currently one has to use a notebook but I suspect that we are both thinking that demand would change that last.

Regarding your comments on accuracy, a client found that the non official electronic charts for his home waters (not C-Map but another) were accurate in his home port but gradually became inaccurate as one moved away along the coast from there until 20 miles away the inaccuracy was 200m. That was in very well surveyed waters (not here though).

John
 
Re: Electronic Charts - Beware C-Map\'s disclaimer

That is very interesting, John, thank you. I don't suppose that it is viable for me and I shall have to continue to use C-Map or whatever yacht hardware I happen to be using. For myself, I am truly not interested in the 'toy' element.

One thing that surprises me about the Navman 5500i (and you being from NZ might have an answer or view on this) is that it is not possible to set a depth alarm either dynamically (i.e. wherever the yacht actually is) or along an active leg. This seems to be a grave oversight. You can set an alarm for so-called 'danger' points but sadly shallows, land, rocks, etc. are not deemed to be 'dangers'! Perhaps I ought to open a thread specific to this as it might be a general issue rather than Navman alone?
 
Corrections...

Shipping has option to download auto updates via Sat-coms connection or to have updates mailed to vessel. They can of course not update if vessel has full paper job - where that is corrected as per system prev. and present.
 
Re: Corrections...

Whoops, sbc I have bin LakeSailored (am not criticizing that please understand as it confirms we agree /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

Lemain, I not familiar with the Navman matter but does seem strange, however, I have not used many small plotters and then has mainly been on small fast commercial MoBo's where they have just been a secondary aid to increase spatial awareness. sbc may be able to better comment on it.

I have a couple of times in other threads in the past mentioned that I wonder what the future is for the providers of non official charts now that the official providers are getting more vector charts into their portfolios. I assume there will always be a place for non official such as there remains a small place for non official paper chart providers now. But as you have led into with your post maybe in the future pleasure plotters will tend towards official charts?

John
 
Sorry about that .... but have to agree that ...

Some posts are so long and boring - that they don't get read often. Simple question - boring long answers !!

I posted my LS version not aware that another had said similar..... I checked through the thread and just answered as I found ...

I have to say - that the subject of ECS actually drives me nuts now ... !! The subject is actually simple - convenience, ease of use and GPS input makes people able to navigate far more than ever before. Legality and update / current charting is over-emphasised .... anyone who relies on any chart - paper or ECS to enter a shoaling / dangerous area without due eye-ball and other care is stepping outside good seamanship and vessel conning.

For yachting - the question of ECS is really a question of personal preference - not legislation ...

At present - I am covering a ship of 100,000 ton DWT .... fitted with latest technology ..... ECS and paper .... they have to transit over top of Denmark, through tricky waters round SE part and S Sweden ..... they keep eye on both ECS and paper ..... the paper chart is on a "glass" bed with GPS controlled light spot under to indicate position automatically ... but it is policy that pencil and rules are still used to plot as traditional ....
How do they navigate the channels - Buoys and racons etc. Charts are not the #1 - they are subject to visual and other instruments as an overall package............

Oh - the ECS ? CMapECS latest version with auto updates via Satcom. Integration of Radar, Charting, Gyro etc. etc. into centralised information / Nav system.
 
Re: Sorry about that .... but have to agree that ...

[ QUOTE ]
Legality and update / current charting is over-emphasised .... anyone who relies on any chart - paper or ECS to enter a shoaling / dangerous area without due eye-ball and other care is stepping outside good seamanship and vessel conning.

[/ QUOTE ]I can't say I agree with that. We approached La Coruna in the early 1970s, at night, after crossing from the Hamble, and in the absence of the leading light we approached on the aero beacon (our radar had failed). As we approached a naval launch came out from El Ferrol and signalled that we were standing into danger. An oil tanker has sunk in the port a couple of weeks before and we did not have the updates on our charts. The wreck was poorly marked and the leading light was deliberately turned off as it carried you onto the wreck.

"due eye-ball and other care"? No, what was needed was accurate up to date information.
 
Re: Sorry about that .... but have to agree that ...

As a quick question, are the CMap charts as used on small plotters the same charts (cartography!) as those used in the CMap ECS ie CMap93 or are we talking chalk and cheese here
 
Difficult to tell ... 2 matters ...

I know that sounds like a cop-out .... but the plotter is running continuously and Master does not allow to "poke fingers" at it !! The charts are Vector and look like CM93 vers 3 .....

The CmapECS system available "pirate" across the web is the old commercial package ..... not a yachting package. It has been updated over time through versions 1, 2, 3 etc. Later are not runnable on the old ECS and also has to be updated.

I have limited time up on bridge as I am there to make sure 100,000 MT of crude is looked after ... just thought I would pass on obs.

As to entering hbr and wrecks etc. as another pointed for La Corunna .... I agree with you there - but nav-warnings are issued and are a different matter to chart corrections. Chart corrections are such that they have to be current for a significant period before they become HO corrections. Temporary or items that are to be cleared - eg recent sinking with intended salvage etc. - would normally be issued as a Nav Warning ...... maybe the LaCorunna wreck is a chart correction - I don't know - not sailing that area - but anyone who is sailing should take note of Nav Warnings for the very reason the poster has highlighted. Chart Corrections are often months behind actual .... as a Second Mate - I have many times corrected a chart and then a few Notices on - the same correction is cancelled and corrected back to previous ..... like many on here and many outside - I had to mantain world-wide folios - some ships with tracings - many without ... needing manual insertion..... a full-time job.
 
Suggest all take a look at my post on SB .... 110,000 ton tanker

I just spent an afternoon chatting with Master and Officers on most questions that arise on these forums ..... pics and text ....
 
Re: Suggest all take a look at my post on SB .... 110,000 ton tanker

[ QUOTE ]
I just spent an afternoon chatting with Master and Officers on most questions that arise on these forums ..... pics and text ....

[/ QUOTE ]...and??
 
I dont want to repeat post !!! Blimey the Forum Police \'ll be on me !

Over on Scuttlebutt is the full post ........
 
Re: I dont want to repeat post !!! Blimey the Forum Police \'ll be on me !

I see now, you are using the message title as part of your message. That always throws me. It also makes it awkward as forum emails don't tell us which thread it is, as someone has changed the blessed title!
 
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