Legal requirements to make passage plan

[franksingleton]

The PBO article in the January issue regarding the Liquid Vortex trial makes interesting reading.

 

[Tomahawk]

help please?

I don't have paper copies going that far back.. A link would be helpful...

Having said that... I have been wonding what the Liquid Vortex trial will throw up with regards to SOLASregulations and pleasure yachtmen.... There was a thread about a solo chap rescued of N Wales.. It would seem that he was a prime candidate for prosecution under SOLAS after putting to sea in adverse conditions with a boat that was not suitqble forthe voyage and also without adequate passage planning..

 

[akyaka]

There is a definition of what is sea and where it starts and finishes for these purposes around the UK

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/pleasurecraftregs/Pages/SOLASV.aspx

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/shipsandcargoes/mcga-shipsregsandguidance/marinenotices/mcga-mnotice.htm?textobjid=AFB108F490AA4EB1

Often thought that I should keep copies aboard

 

[Searush]

I don't have paper copies going that far back.. A link would be helpful...

Having said that... I have been wonding what the Liquid Vortex trial will throw up with regards to SOLASregulations and pleasure yachtmen.... There was a thread about a solo chap rescued of N Wales.. It would seem that he was a prime candidate for prosecution under SOLAS after putting to sea in adverse conditions with a boat that was not suitqble forthe voyage and also without adequate passage planning..

Is there a legal definition of what constitutes "adequate" in any given circumstances? AFAIK there isn't even a set of guidelines.

For pottering around well known sheltered waters, a rough idea of tides & an idea of where you are going plus a chart & compass might be adequate.

For a long distance passage, then adequate stores & detail charts of possible ports & "turning points" or "pinch points" plus wind charts & nav eqt? Many have crossed oceans with far less.

No plan ever survives contact with the enemy - and our enemy is the weather! I know my "passage plans" which are often just mental, frequently change if it's sunnier (or wetter) than expected or I meet a pal once out.

 

[lw395]

Is there a legal definition of what constitutes "adequate" in any given circumstances? AFAIK there isn't even a set of guidelines.
.....

When things go bad, and a better plan would have helped, that's 'not adequate'.

It would be very hard to write a meaningful set of guidelines, except in the most general terms.

 

[akyaka]

Is there a legal definition of what constitutes "adequate" in any given circumstances? AFAIK there isn't even a set of guidelines.

Searush open my links and you will see.

Voyage / Passage Planning
Regulation 34 - Safe navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations
1. Prior to proceeding to sea, the master shall ensure that the intended voyage has been planned using the appropriate nautical charts and nautical publications for the area concerned, taking into account the guidelines and recommendations developed by the Organization.*
2. The voyage plan shall identify a route which:
2.1. takes into account any relevant ships' routeing systems
2.2. ensures sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the ship throughout the voyage
2.3. anticipates all known navigational hazards and adverse weather conditions; and
2.4. takes into account the marine environmental protection measures that apply, and avoids, as far as possible, actions and activities which could cause damage to the environment
*Refer to the Guidelines for Voyage Planning, adopted by the Organization by Resolution A.893(21)
The MCA Guidance Notes for this regulation state: For small vessels and pleasure-craft the degree of voyage planning will be depend upon the size of vessel, its crew and the length of the voyage. The MCA expects all mariners to make a careful assessment of any proposed voyage taking into account all dangers to navigation, weather forecasts, tidal predictions and other relevant factors including the competence of the crew.
RYA Note: Skippers should note that this regulation changes the status of passage planning on small boats from simply good practice to a requirement under UK law for vessels proceeding to sea. “Going to sea” is defined as proceeding outside of 'categorized waters' (most of the Solent area counts as categorised waters, as do many estuaries). See MSN 1827 for full details.

By the way the start of the sea at the north end of the Menai Straits on the mainland side is amusingly Penmaenmawr railway station; or is that only when the boat train to Holyhead is in?

 

[zzyyxx]

Is there a legal definition of what constitutes "adequate" in any given circumstances? AFAIK there isn't even a set of guidelines.

MGN 166 "Guidelines for Voyage Planning"
http://www.portsmouth-port.co.uk/pmsc/mgn0166.pdf

It is unlikely that a "mental plan" would suffice, and commercial ships do get detained for not having a suitable written plan under the same regulations.

[I think this note gets a mention in SOLAS, and the MSA makes SOLAS law, so a passage plan must fit these guidelines. As I understand it to be.]

 

[Searush]

Searush open my links and you will see.



By the way the start of the sea at the north end of the Menai Straits on the mainland side is amusingly Penmaenmawr railway station; or is that only when the boat train to Holyhead is in?

Llanfairfechan Railway Station - Penmaemawr is the cliff that marks the entrance to Conwy & is only a wee village & caravan site. And I doubt that many of the London-Holyhead trains ever stop there.

That definition of the Menai Straits is based on the Authority of the Caernarfon Harbour Trust.

Anyway I clearly don't "legally need" a passage plan unless I pass Puffin or Th Caernarfon Bar & TBH I would be daft to do either without at least being aware of tide & weather!

 

[PhilipH]

MGN 166 "Guidelines for Voyage Planning"
http://www.portsmouth-port.co.uk/pmsc/mgn0166.pdf

It is unlikely that a "mental plan" would suffice, and commercial ships do get detained for not having a suitable written plan under the same regulations.

[I think this note gets a mention in SOLAS, and the MSA makes SOLAS law, so a passage plan must fit these guidelines. As I understand it to be.]

Is a "mental plan" the same as a "dynamic risk assessment"? That'll be making it up as you go along?

 

[LadyInBed]

Is a "mental plan" the same as a "dynamic risk assessment"? That'll be making it up as you go along?

 

[akyaka]

Llanfairfechan Railway Station - Penmaemawr is the cliff that marks the entrance to Conwy & is only a wee village & caravan site. And I doubt that many of the London-Holyhead trains ever stop there.

I think the tunnel you are referring to is the Penmaenbach tunnel, the one thats used as a sighter coming over from Puffin towards the Conway fairway buoy

Llanfairfechan does not have a railway station and is set off the A55. Penmaemawr is located between Penmaenbach and Pen Y Clip tunnels and does have a station. It can be clearly seen being beside the A55.

The reference to the boat train was accompanied by a smiley.

Trust your passage planning is more accurate

 

[onesea]

When things go bad, and a better plan would have helped, that's 'not adequate'.

When things go bad, and a better plan would have helped, that's 'not adequate'.

Lets face it no one will criticize your plan until it goes wrong. Then when it does go wrong it will not be good enough...

My last place of work you could tell who was in the safety department.
Risk Assessment English term: All foreseeable risks.

Job Safety Analysis: All Risks.

I tended to do Risk Assessments, JSA's if it did go wrong you where going to get the blame regardless so I did not waste my time with them.

Is a "mental plan" the same as a "dynamic risk assessment"? That'll be making it up as you go along?

 

[Searush]

I think the tunnel you are referring to is the Penmaenbach tunnel, the one thats used as a sighter coming over from Puffin towards the Conway fairway buoy

Llanfairfechan does not have a railway station and is set off the A55. Penmaemawr is located between Penmaenbach and Pen Y Clip tunnels and does have a station. It can be clearly seen being beside the A55.

The reference to the boat train was accompanied by a smiley.

Trust your passage planning is more accurate

I give up, we are talking at cross purposes. Llanfairfechan station was a direct quote from your link. I didn't mention any tunnel, but it may well be the smaller headland that is adjacent to Conwy, I can't be bothered to look it up.

Never used the train so no idea where the stations on it actually are, but doubt the expresses stop at them anyway.

 

[Tomahawk]

Is there a legal definition of what constitutes "adequate" in any given circumstances? ....

No plan ever survives contact with the enemy - and our enemy is the weather! I know my "passage plans" which are often just mental, frequently change if it's sunnier (or wetter) than expected .......

Whilst agreeing with you in every salient respect... (now there is a dodgy thing to do on a forum)....

I wonder about some public sector jobsworth deciding to justify being paid by having an initive to start "inspecting" peoples passage plans with a presumption that if it is not written down it must be inadequate?

 

[Nostrodamus]

Whilst agreeing with you in every salient respect... (now there is a dodgy thing to do on a forum)....

I wonder about some public sector jobsworth deciding to justify being paid by having an initive to start "inspecting" peoples passage plans with a presumption that if it is not written down it must be inadequate?

I don't think it mentions anywhere that it has to be written down.
There are so many variables on a passage particularly if it is a long one in unknown waters that a plan covering all eventualities would go on for pages and pages.
I do tend to write down the main thing such as tides, high waters, winds and jot down a heading on various points mentioned in the pilots I have read. If the route is more challenging then I put more down. A short hop across a bay of an hour or two may require nothing to be written down.

Do the same route the following day and things might be different.

 

[Contest1]

I regularly use my Nokia N8 smart fone for passage planning. it has detailed Navionics UK and Ireland charts, route planning, way point plotting and tidal graphs built in.
Also works as a hand held chart plotter tho small screen size is a problem.
It also get weather and likely harbours of refuge details on line, inyourfootsteps is great for Ireland, downloaded pages can be accessed when out of coverage.
Keeps me in touch with the shore base, the wife, on passage or at least when back in coverage.
All this info would be evidence of risk assessment if required and having it all on a single device makes passage planning a lot more convenient and therefore more likely.
On board I use all the usual gear, charts and almanacks but the N8 can be accessed anywere, helps pass the time planning my next cruise during idle moments at work or in dull (non sailing) company.

 

[zzyyxx]

I don't think it mentions anywhere that it has to be written down.

From MGN166:-

3 Planning
(...)
3.2 The detailed voyage or passage plan should
include the following factors:
.1 the plotting of the intended route or track
of the voyage or passage on appropriate
scale charts
(...)
3.3 The details of the voyage or passage plan
should be clearly marked and recorded, as
appropriate, on charts and in a voyage plan
notebook or computer disk.
(...)
5 Monitoring
(...)
5.2 The progress of the vessel in accordance with
the voyage and passage plan should be
closely and continuously monitored. Any
changes made to the plan should be made
consistent with these Guidelines and clearly
marked and recorded.

I take it to mean that computer systems fit the bill as well.

 

[wotayottie]

Is there a legal definition of what constitutes "adequate" in any given circumstances? AFAIK there isn't even a set of guidelines.

The RYA gave out some guidelines when the requirement first came in, but the reality is that what is adequate will be decided by argument in court between two bewigged twats with little or no knowledge of the sea and 100% hindsight. You'll only have a good passage plan if your **** is better than their **** since almost by definition, you'll only end up in court with enquiries about passage plans if your passage plan has failed..

 

[zzyyxx]

The RYA gave out some guidelines when the requirement first came in, but the reality is that what is adequate will be decided by argument in court between two bewigged twats with little or no knowledge of the sea and 100% hindsight. You'll only have a good passage plan if your **** is better than their **** since almost by definition, you'll only end up in court with enquiries about passage plans if your passage plan has failed..

Well yes, but they'll compare your passage plan against MGN 166.

Commercial ships do get detained for not having adequate passage plans without any accident.

 

[lenseman]

I would like to correct an error on this thread regarding MGN 166.

This is an obsolete publication and it is not even listed on the MCA web site, having been superseded in July 2002, which is more than ten years ago.

It was replaced by SOLAS Chapter V to which I have added the link below:

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/index.html

.
the relevant sections are Annex 24 and Annex 25 below:

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/Annexes/Annex24.htm

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/Annexes/Annex25.htm


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