Legal question V.A.T.paid sealine

[peterbird]

I have negotiated an acceptable price on a used Sealine. The paperwork seems ok except for proof of V.A.T being paid. The boat is being sold through a broker. It was sold new by Sealines agents in Portugal, the boat is registered in Portugal. I have requested a copy of the original invoice which cannot be found. I have contacted the agents in Lisbon by email that has fell on deaf ears. What exactly do I require as proof ? Would a decleration from the selling broker be sufficient ?

 

[PhilF]

Sealine should have a copy of the original invoice. How old is the Boat? Could could get agro without a vat paid receipt, Brokers letter no good i don't think. whats the price? work out the risk?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Its not enough to get a copy of Sealine's invoice to the first supplying dealer because it is unlikely to show VAT paid as invoices between companies in different countries do not have VAT added provided the receiving company's VAT No is shown. In any case, they are very unlikely to give it to you. A declaration from the selling broker is not worth the paper it's written on so reject that offer
Unless you can get the original invoice (not a photocopy) showing VAT paid from the supplying dealer to the first owner walk away or negotiate a price reduction to reflect the fact that VAT has not been paid

 

[donut]

Hi. Bought a 1997 GB36 last September through Monaco Marine. They stated it was VAT paid. I obviously asked for evidence of this. The best they could do to alleviate my worries was to claim that, as the vendor was a French citizen and the boat was registered in France, VAT must have been paid (PS they had originally sold him the boat new but no sign of copy of Bill of Sale). As I changed the registration to be on SSR I received a Certificat de Changement de Pavillon from the Douanes Francaises. This is the only thing I got. Loved the boat and St Laurent du Var so fingers crossed eh?

 

[jfm]

Monaco are a reputable outfit. But there are loads of boats in that region, owned by Fr citizens and others, that are not VAT paid. So Fr citizen etc proves nothing.

I have not heard of Certificat de Changement de Pavillon from the Douanes Francaises. What is that? It may be some sort of VAT proof/comfort, as it is issued by Douanes, I wonder?

We are in Vauban, English flagged, and before that Camille Rayon. Never had a VAT question/visit/inspection etc. So, whether your boat is VAT paid or not they'll probly leave you alone

 

[donut]

It was just confirmation of cancellation of the French Registration. As it was issued by the Douanes it did give some comfort re: VAT. Bit late for me to be worrying now so thanks for the encouragement. Might try and get the original invoice from the vendor if I can (He was a bit elusive at the time).

 

[tcm]

fr orange reg book = vat paid i think?

afaik, the orange registration book which you get with french-flagged boat means it simply MUST be vat-paid :- there is no mechansim for reclaiming vat from an french boat with orange logbook afaik.

The registration book I think is summink we brits should have - instead of chasing fistfulls of poxy bits of paper you get the orig book stamped to show who bought it, and who bought it after that all the way along. Doesn't matter about the bill of sale - the logbook is the thing, like a car . You even get little stickers to show you have paid the annual french sailing tax too. Ok, best not have the tax stickers, ahem, but it does mean that the logbook is "the thing" rather than a bunch of bits of paper that frankly anyone could produce with a bit of preprinted stationery like Deleted User Marine International etc.

The change de pavillion document is the de-registrion doc you get from the douanes and is good, imho, to show the boat was french flagged hence vat paid, unlike flaky brit boats which can easily have a vat invoice but then the owner reclaims the vat after a few charters.

You can't own a fr boat if you aren't a french person or a french company.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Never been checked by Customs in UK or abroad myself but the problem comes when you try to resell the boat and a buyer wants positive proof of VAT payment
There are so many kosher boats out there for sale that it does'nt seem worthwile buying one with incomplete paperwork unless the price is right of course

 

[jfm]

Also - I'm assuming you are dealing with the St Lau d Var branch of Monaco Marine - if anything goes wrong there is at least the consolation prize of chatting it through with the luvverley Helene....

 

[donut]

Ah yes. Helene of St Laurent. The face that could sell a thousand ships and who cares about the VAT

 

[peterbird]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah yes. Helene of St Laurent. The face that could sell a thousand ships and who cares about the VAT

[/ QUOTE ]

I do we are talking about Pedro of Portugal and I don't fancy him one bit! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[donut]

Ah yes. Pedro of Portugal. Not quite the same ring to it.

In the EU an individual EU resident must be charged VAT on the supply of goods or services if they are to be used or consumed within the EU. Portugal became a member of the EU in 1986. If the vendor is an individual (not a business), resident in Portugal (or within the EU), the boat is registered in Portugal (and therefore used within the EU) and is younger than 1986, I would reckon it is safe to believe the brokers when they say it is VAT paid. My current boat is the first I have bought abroad but have had previous boats in the UK, all of which were second/third/fourth hand. Like most others I never checked the VAT status on boats bought in the UK if they were being sold by individuals albeit through brokers. I believe the most sensible thing to do, for your peace of mind, is for you to seek expert advice from Customs and Excise here

 

[peterbird]

In Portugal if a boat changes hands it has to be reregistered with a Livrette, it's like an English log book for a car and to do this a copy of the original invoice has to be supplied. Hopefully the port where it was last registered will hold a copy of the invoice. The boat was sold when new to a private buyer and not a company so as you suggest it seems very unlikely that vat was not paid. BUT you can never be too carefull.