G
Guest
Guest
Does a Sailing Club have any legal obligations to its membership in regard to laying on a safety boat for its members whilst participating in a racing event? and in particular to cruisers?
Lynette
Member
Good question. My club looked carefully at this last year and decided we didn't - provided we made absolutely clear we were not responsible for yacht safety by putting disclaimers against everything. Participation in all events is the skipper's sole responsibility.
Whether that is good enough I guess could only be determined by a test case. The assumption is that the skipper is competetent to judge what he and his crew were capable of. If we organised an event knowing a skipper was not capable, it is questionable whether a disclaimer would an adequate defence. That of course would be the case if we were responsible for children's events.
This issue was raised in relation to the Sydney - Hobart race tragedy, but as far as I know no case was brought against the race organisers.
Whether that is good enough I guess could only be determined by a test case. The assumption is that the skipper is competetent to judge what he and his crew were capable of. If we organised an event knowing a skipper was not capable, it is questionable whether a disclaimer would an adequate defence. That of course would be the case if we were responsible for children's events.
This issue was raised in relation to the Sydney - Hobart race tragedy, but as far as I know no case was brought against the race organisers.
BrianJ
New member
We dont. Most of our races are started from the tower, some are started from the rescue boat. ie last saturday we had a fleet of 100 yachts and had 3 rescue boats on the water. Their main jobs were to lay the markers and assist if reqired.Its up to the skipper to decide if he should sail in the conditions at the time. Not the Club. BrianJ
G
Guest
Guest
The disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on. I summarised the reasons why in my posting on PBO forum.
G
Guest
Guest
Very interesting comment I wonder what the board of saftey are going to make of their investigation in the latest tragedy on Windermere where a crewman lost his life through conditions that deteriated after they took part! and from what information I am told there was only a committe (start boat in attendance)
Lynette
Member
Read your PBO comment, and sure you are quite correct about negligence. No waiver can protect against that.
However, cases do sometimes hinge on what the different sides believed they were being offered by the other. We were concerned that by inspecting a yacht or accepting a race entry, the skipper might be in a position to argue that we had agreed that he, the crew, or the yacht were suitable and capable of dealing with the conditions.
I read of a recent case in the US where a family had sued the yacht skipper after a crew member was lost overboard and drowned while racing, when the yacht hit unforecast bad weather. The skipper was exonerated. What seemed to matter most to the judgement was that all crew members were experienced and would have understood the risks. That all recommended safety gear was aboard and that the skipper had offered use of a lifeline also seems to have been important. Not quite the same situation, but some parallels here.
The lesson would seem to be - don't take inexperienced people racing! (So how does anyone get started?)
However, cases do sometimes hinge on what the different sides believed they were being offered by the other. We were concerned that by inspecting a yacht or accepting a race entry, the skipper might be in a position to argue that we had agreed that he, the crew, or the yacht were suitable and capable of dealing with the conditions.
I read of a recent case in the US where a family had sued the yacht skipper after a crew member was lost overboard and drowned while racing, when the yacht hit unforecast bad weather. The skipper was exonerated. What seemed to matter most to the judgement was that all crew members were experienced and would have understood the risks. That all recommended safety gear was aboard and that the skipper had offered use of a lifeline also seems to have been important. Not quite the same situation, but some parallels here.
The lesson would seem to be - don't take inexperienced people racing! (So how does anyone get started?)
tcm
...
exclusions ARE valid imho
difficult to run a post across to forums. UCTA applies to business contracts only.
difficult to run a post across to forums. UCTA applies to business contracts only.
G
Guest
Guest
+I was amazed to find that the Little Ship Club, when organising a rally to Calais (for example) required all participants to sign an indemnity form.
I raised this (I was going as crew with a friend, but was also a member). My argument was that a club consisted of its members and one should not sue oneself.
I also held that in joining a club, you shared in the activities of that club and decent behavious requitred that members do not take legal action against the club. That any member who contemplated the possibility ought to resign. This is apparently old-fashioned.
I learned that the club (and this applies to many clubs nowadays) is not just a collection of members, but a Limited Liability Company, and of course a company is entirely separate from its shareholders.
It is probable that the LSC contains more lawyers than any other club except the Law Society YC and the Bar YC.
I am no longer a member, but I did not actually resign over this.
William Cooper
I raised this (I was going as crew with a friend, but was also a member). My argument was that a club consisted of its members and one should not sue oneself.
I also held that in joining a club, you shared in the activities of that club and decent behavious requitred that members do not take legal action against the club. That any member who contemplated the possibility ought to resign. This is apparently old-fashioned.
I learned that the club (and this applies to many clubs nowadays) is not just a collection of members, but a Limited Liability Company, and of course a company is entirely separate from its shareholders.
It is probable that the LSC contains more lawyers than any other club except the Law Society YC and the Bar YC.
I am no longer a member, but I did not actually resign over this.
William Cooper
G
Guest
Guest
But if a members life is placed in danger due to the clubs lack of care especially when previous accidents have taken place and the said club is not prepared to put on safety boats then the question must be asked! Is the club neglecting a statutary duty of care to its members?
l'escargot
New member
There is a moral responsibility but is there actually a statute that says a club has a duty of care? There are clearly defined areas such as Health and Safety legislation or Public Liability, but these are intended to apply to premises and equipment - a user of a safety boat, or someone rescued by it, may have recourse - I don't think an undefined service such as safety cover would fall within their remit. Ultimately who would be the individual (if there is one) held responsible, The Commodore, Race Officer or would it be the membership who voted in the rules?
G
Guest
Guest
In the case of our particular club its not a limited company so if the club was sued for negligence it would appear not only the committee but the whole membership would be liable.
It was brought up at a AG meeting recently and the club voted in not placing a safety boat on for its membership however the vote was not 100% of the membership.
How does a member protect himself from the possible litigation due to the majority vote. Are those individuals open to such legal action being jointly and severally liable .
Maybe resignation from the club to protect oneself mighgt be the only action one should take in the circumstances.
Regards
Bluebeard
It was brought up at a AG meeting recently and the club voted in not placing a safety boat on for its membership however the vote was not 100% of the membership.
How does a member protect himself from the possible litigation due to the majority vote. Are those individuals open to such legal action being jointly and severally liable .
Maybe resignation from the club to protect oneself mighgt be the only action one should take in the circumstances.
Regards
Bluebeard
l'escargot
New member
Could it be said that a member would have no claim as, by virtue of membership, they are party to the (democratic) decision not to provide cover - i.e. it would be a claim against themself for their own negligence - taking us nicely around in a full circle and making the individual responsible for their own actions! If only it could be so simple.
alant
Active member
When this topic is broached, there is usually an insurance company requirement somewhere, which the sailing club 'officials' have to abide by.
G
Guest
Guest
As it was me that made the proposal to the membership to provide a safetey boat and the vote went 55 not to provide a safetey boat and 45 for it means in my view that should a accident happen . Not necessary to a member but a guest crew then the whole club inc me would be sued, or at least thats how Isee it. If I resigned and placed on record at the club that I disaprove of the level of saftey and that I will not be held resposible now or in the future should such a claim take place then I can do no more unless the forum has any further suggestions.
Regards
Bluebeard
Regards
Bluebeard