Legal advice wanted - Vixen Tor

Access in Ireland?

I agree with Jemmie - there is a very clear connection for cruising yotties.

I have a query about Ireland. Is it my imagination, or has there been a growth in access restriction, particularly in the South West? I've never noticed an excessively heavy regime in the past, but on several occasions this year, we came across newly padlocked gates to unworked fields, "keep out" notices, misleading signs about fields being in use when they patently were not, and notices about bulls in fields that hadn't seen an animal in years.

I have to say that I found some places (fortunately the minority) to be decidedly unwelcoming. Sherkin Island being one.
 
It's some walk from the nearest anchorage to Vixen Tor, ain't it? Don't meet many cruising types when I am on the Moors (Dartmoor or Bodmin Moor)
 
Re: Access in Ireland?

Since the new Act became law there has been a misapprehension created by the press of something people like to call Right to Roam. This has led lots of landowners to be very wary - remember the troubles we have had with unlawful squatters over the years? Once they are squatting there is one hell of a job to get them moved on, and the landowner is left with piles of unmentionable rubbish to be cleaned up when they finally leave. This has consisted of broken down vehicles, the contents of toilets dumped in fields, etc. in the past. No wonder they try to keep people out.
Offer your services to somebody like the National Trust as a volunteer litter picker and you will soon see.
 
Re: Access in Ireland?

Ramblers/Climbers etc on the whole respect the countryside.I cant see how you can compare them with squatters .

walking with my Son recently on a public path through farmland we took the wrong gate and were stood in the garden of an old mill house trying to work out where we had gone wrong.The owner arrived home and very poiltely accepted our apology and pointed us in the right direction.

Not all land owners affected by rights of way are uptight or aggressive ,those that are need to be challenged.
 
Removing Trespassers

"In brief, a person is justified in using reasonable force in defence of his property, for instance, in removing a trespasser. The general rule is that no more force than is necessary in the circumstances may be used.
However, before any force can be used the first hurdle to jump if the trespasser peaceably entered the land is that the trespasser must be requested to leave and be given a reasonable opportunity to go.
If the trespasser used force to enter the land or is forcibly removing items from the land, or has used violence, reasonable force may be used. This must amount to nothing more than forcible removal and must not include beating, wounding or other physical injury. It would not therefore be appropriate to grab the nearest pitch fork and attack the trespasser.
However, if meeting resistance when using such force, you are entitled to try harder, but the extent to which the violence may escalate depends on the value of the property and the harm threatened to it. "
Christine Saunders LLB, Curtis Parkinson Solicitors
 
Lack of independent witnesses may have had a bearing on the CPS dropping the case.

We don't have a law of trespass here.

Instead a piece of land can be registered with the Court and thereafter anyone being on the land without the owner's pemission is liable to a fine. Has to be a proper sign of course. Seems to work better than your law.
 
Re: Removing Trespassers

[ QUOTE ]
If the trespasser used force to enter the land or is forcibly removing items from the land, or has used violence, reasonable force may be used. This must amount to nothing more than forcible removal and must not include beating, wounding or other physical injury.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is talking about "if the trespasser has used force" etc. Criminal trespass is a criminal offence. And he says "in defence of his property". There is no indication the climbers had used force or where forcibly removing items from the land etc.
 
Re: Removing Trespassers

My understanding is that the area is fenced of so force would be used to climb over/ break down the fence. If someone climbs through a window into your house are you suggesting there is nothing you can do other than ask them to leave?
By the way, I think Christine is a woman.
 
Yes, I understand from my dinghy-camping days over there that something very similar exists in Swedish law and practice. And they seem a lot happier for it.

It's perhaps the balance between 'rights and responsibilities' on the land that generates a more comfortable co-existence. There is something about the English class obsession with 'keeping the plebs in their place - that is, somewhere else' that I find offensive.

Having walked in the mountains of Dhofar and along the Zambezi Valley when there were tensions among armed neighbours, I know the value to all of a smile, an open hand, and 'taking nothing but photographs and leaving nothing but footprints'.......

It seems to me that people around here do not sufficiently value their rights to protect them for their children to enjoy.
 
BMC press release earlier this year

24 February, 2005

A serious flaw in the Countryside and Right of Way Act has been exposed today with a Planning Inspectorate decision on access to Vixen Tor on Dartmoor. An appeal by the landowner against the mapping of her land as ‘open access’ has been upheld, despite her illegal improvement of the land to escape falling under CRoW’s definition of moorland.

When the CRoW Act is applied to the Southwest, Vixen Tor will not be included on maps as open to the public, and the owner will be within her legal right to exclude people from one of the region’s best crags.

Climbers and walkers enjoyed unlimited access to Vixen Tor for more than 30 years with the agreement of the previous owner. But this arrangement ground to a halt in 2003 when a new landowner, Ms Mary Alford of Moortown Farm, Tavistock, installed a barbed-wire fence around the crag. She removed existing stiles and spray-painted ‘Private Property – Keep Out!’ at a traditional access point.

Most controversially, she also improved the land by spreading seaweed and manure over it, changing a significant proportion of the field from open moorland habitat to semi-improved pasture. Ms Alford was successfully prosecuted by DEFRA for this action, and widely condemned by local access and conservation campaigners.

But the Planning Inspectorate’s decision to ignore Vixen Tor’s illegal improvement in hearing Ms Alford’s appeal now opens the door to similar action across Britain from other landowners to use similar tactics – flouting the law to get their land removed from open-access designation.

The BMC’s Regional Access and Conservation Officer Guy Keating said: ‘This decision represents a considerable blow to the intended spirit of the CRoW Act. Today has been a disaster for anyone who enjoys recreation in the nation’s wild spaces’

The BMC will continue to pursue the issue of access to Vixen Tor, and together with the Ramblers’ Association, will campaign for the Dartmoor National Park Authority to impose a statutory access order on the site. Given the NPA’s previous statements, this seems a strong possibility. In the meantime, it remains up to individuals to make their own decision about climbing on Vixen Tor.
 
Re: A different take!

Re Roman Fashion

Suggestions:
Using peeled grapes
Getting a slave to do it for you
Doing it with a slave
Using short, forward thrusts, rather then the swinging, cutting blows favoured by those with longer swords
Doing it behind a wall, to discourage the Scots from becoming involved
 
Re: A different take!

Remember Mary Whitehouse and 'The Romans in Britain' at the National Theatre. Ancient nautical practice I believe.....
Seriously...if one was carried away on the foredeck at anchor and someone objected where would you stand ??
 
Re: BMC press release earlier this year

Damn good thing too. We need to preserve Tors for future generations. Walkers and climbers clambering all over them will wear them out. Lets face it, they get weathered enough as it is without human intervention. The new owner is merely protecting an asset for future generations
 
Re: BMC press release earlier this year

Undoubtedtedly the tar and grease spread over Vixen Tor by Ms Alsford is for such conservation purposes
 
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