Lee Sanitation, holding tanks and hose knitting

[Graham_Wright]

I am in the process of cramming in all the bits of pipework for the heads. Dredging the available information for mistake avoidance, I referred to Peggie Hall's book (How to avoid boat odors(sic-American!)) which is a goldmine of good advice.

I also looked at Lee Sanitation's website for the same reason.

I couldn't help noticing the remarkable similarity in the advice and the wording.

Plagiarization?!

 

[FullCircle]

Pity, we haven't seen Headmistress since 2007.

I too have plagiarised her sage advice.

 

[macd]

How to avoid boat odors(sic-American!...
Plagiarization?!

Now how many are going to regard that 'z' as an Americanism?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Now how many are going to regard that 'z' as an Americanism?

Or a Scotticism. Where do you think the Americans got -ize from?

 

[Bilgediver]

I am in the process of cramming in all the bits of pipework for the heads. Dredging the available information for mistake avoidance, I referred to Peggy Hall's book (How to avoid boat odors(sic-American!)) which is a goldmine of good advice.

I also looked at Lee Sanitation's website for the same reason.

I couldn't help noticing the remarkable similarity in the advice and the wording.

Plagiarization?!

No, I believe Peggie worked with Lee and others some years ago sharing her knowledge of dealing with Poo . I don t think she visited them when over in 1997 as too busy chasing Nessie Some may remember

She is still sharing her knowledge but mainly on USA forums and websites as she has other interests !

 

[macd]

Where do you think the Americans got -ize from?

Same as us: Greek.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Now how many are going to regard that 'z' as an Americanism?

Aware of my own standards, I took the trouble to consult the OED.

The "z" is their own preferred spelling. The "s" is second choice.

The derivation is "Latin, plagiarius (yes, I know, with an "s"!) 'kidnapper' from plagium 'a kidnapping' from Greek plagion".

However, as a second derivative. you could honour (honor?) me with deference to Peggie.

At least, the forum didn't complain about the spelling for once!

 

[macd]

Aware of my own standards, I took the trouble to consult the OED.

The "z" is their own preferred spelling. The "s" is second choice.

The derivation is "Latin, plagiarius (yes, I know, with an "s"!) 'kidnapper' from plagium 'a kidnapping' from Greek plagion".

However, as a second derivative. you could honour (honor?) me with deference to Peggie.

At least, the forum didn't complain about the spelling for once!

Note I didn't say the 'z' was wrong, just that many people regard it as so. Oxford prefers 'z', Cambridge 's', but certainly neither is wrong. Oxford comes to its 'z' preference because of ancient Greek grammar, although you'd have to live very high in an ivory tower to think that relevant to post-Chaucer (or even pre-Chaucer) english. Same with not splitting infinitives, originally because they're not split in Latin (indeed, can't be split in Latin). What the hell has that to do with ordering groceries in Oswaldtwistle? Still, keeps the forums (sic) spinning...

...but is maybe of limited use in fixing your heads, I'm afraid. When they're fixed, will you be the first to boldly go?

 

[mikemonty]

I am in the process of cramming in all the bits of pipework for the heads. Dredging the available information for mistake avoidance, I referred to Peggie Hall's book (How to avoid boat odors(sic-American!)) which is a goldmine of good advice.

I also looked at Lee Sanitation's website for the same reason.

I couldn't help noticing the remarkable similarity in the advice and the wording.

Plagiarization?!

Here's a couple of bits of advice which you may not have seen before and more that you probably have
.
1. don't try to refit the original sanitation hose - the faffing around required just to be able to say you DIDN't use the boat saucepans to heat the hose ends in is not worth it.

2. Sanitary hose has a coil running through it which will - if the hose is twisted in the right direction - open the diameter just slightly but if twisted in the wrong direction cause to tighten up and bind on the nozzle that you are trying to fit to / remove from.
The right direction is as if you are screwing it on (try it with an old ball point pen spring). The wrong - as if you are unscrewing it.

3. before removing the old hose have the replacement to hand. take off the inboard end of the hose, make sure the cock is closed and fill the hose with hot water to warm the valve, because that hot flexible new hose will be cooled instantaneously if you bring it into contact with cold bronze. also this helps in removal of old hose (see above re direction to twist hose as removing to ease job). While the old hose and seacock is warming, boil some more water in that saucepan and heat up the NEW hose end (don't get confused on this point!) open the seacock - twist/pull/grunt until the old one comes off and instantly get the new one on.
Sit back and wait until heart stops racing and the friction burning and scalding subside.

This of course only helps substantially at one end of the hose because once that's on the other end (depending on how much length and therefore "spring" you have) is pretty well impossible to twist successfully. So back to the sacepans and new hose then.

This brought to you at the end of a weeks intermittent wrestling with the heads on my contessa.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Here's a couple of bits of advice which you may not have seen before and more that you probably have
.
1. don't try to refit the original sanitation hose - the faffing around required just to be able to say you DIDN't use the boat saucepans to heat the hose ends in is not worth it.

2. Sanitary hose has a coil running through it which will - if the hose is twisted in the right direction - open the diameter just slightly but if twisted in the wrong direction cause to tighten up and bind on the nozzle that you are trying to fit to / remove from.
The right direction is as if you are screwing it on (try it with an old ball point pen spring). The wrong - as if you are unscrewing it.

3. before removing the old hose have the replacement to hand. take off the inboard end of the hose, make sure the cock is closed and fill the hose with hot water to warm the valve, because that hot flexible new hose will be cooled instantaneously if you bring it into contact with cold bronze. also this helps in removal of old hose (see above re direction to twist hose as removing to ease job). While the old hose and seacock is warming, boil some more water in that saucepan and heat up the NEW hose end (don't get confused on this point!) open the seacock - twist/pull/grunt until the old one comes off and instantly get the new one on.
Sit back and wait until heart stops racing and the friction burning and scalding subside.

This of course only helps substantially at one end of the hose because once that's on the other end (depending on how much length and therefore "spring" you have) is pretty well impossible to twist successfully. So back to the sacepans and new hose then.

This brought to you at the end of a weeks intermittent wrestling with the heads on my contessa.

Thanks for the advice but mine is an original (i.e. first time) fit not a refit.

Admittedly a gadget freak, but the whole assembly is a complex nightmare. If I can find the technical nouse, I'll post a photo.

One point about sanitation hose. I have two lots both manufactured in Italy.
One has a wire insert the other plastic. Unbelievably, the wire is ferrous. Wait for the rust!

I use a hot air gun to soften the hose end.

One of the items on my "must invent and make a fortune from" list is a widget to expand the hose end. Two screwdrivers and a bit of wood as a fulcrum must be able to be improved on.

 

[Graham_Wright]

[QUOTE
When they're fixed, will you be the first to boldly go?[/QUOTE]

The "boldly going" will be achieved with water for a start. I read somewhere that Thomas Crapper used small apples to simulate the solids. How will my pump cope with those?!

 

[prv]

Admittedly a gadget freak, but the whole assembly is a complex nightmare.

So's mine (also a Leesan install, though I'm not suggesting they're especially prone to overcomplication). It looks like the guts of the Space Shuttle in there.

My preferred design, though you need a bigger boat than mine to accommodate it, would be a tall narrow tank with a conical base tapering to a big valve, then vertical pipe down to a big seacock. Outlet pipe from the (Lavac) head goes directly into the top of the tank - no other diverter valves, siphon breaks, etc etc. The airspace in the top of the tank, and its breather, provide the siphon breaking function.

With the tank-bottom valve open, everything falls straight through the tank and out. With it closed, it's held until the valve is open. The tank would be above the waterline (hence the need for height unavailable on my little boat) and drain by gravity.

The top of the tank (and its inspection hatch, pump-out, rodding access down to the exit valve, etc) is got at through a deck plate so you never need to open stinky plumbing to the interior accommodation.

The above would be my ultimate simple, non-blockable, repairable system. What I have is about as far away from that as you can get.

One of the items on my "must invent and make a fortune from" list is a widget to expand the hose end. Two screwdrivers and a bit of wood as a fulcrum must be able to be improved on.

There is such a device, used to pry open outer sheaths on some kinds of cabling I think. Three prongs which lie alongside each other to form a small cylinder when closed, but expand outwards when you squeeze the handle. The colloquial name is not appropriate to a family forum (or even this one) but the first word begins with C and the second word is "stretcher".

I'm not sure whether they're available in big enough sizes for plumbing hose.

Pete

 

[mikemonty]

One of the items on my "must invent and make a fortune from" list is a widget to expand the hose end. Two screwdrivers and a bit of wood as a fulcrum must be able to be improved on.

In my desperation last week I considered this - I even had the tapered end from an old bottlescrew with a bolt through it set up and I was going to turn a variety of diameters of expanders on my wood lathe through which this would be drawn to expand the pipe.
But in the end the simplest is usually the best and a quick boil in nice, safe, temperature limiting water turned out to be the way to go. (And twisting clockwise on a right-hand helix - you have no idea the difference that made!)

If you make a fortune on the pipe expander I want a cut ;-)

 

[MoodySabre]

New loo and holding tank installed last year so have the t-shirt. I heated the ends of the pipe with a heat gun until they were quite soft and put some washing up liquid on the connectors.

Very good price 38mm waste hose and connectors from Leigh Baxter (ebay shop or in Southend). Huge savings on clips by buying from non-boat sources like these people - I got through about 3 dozen (bulk discount) double clipping everything including the diverter.

I used Tek-tanks who were very helpful but the bits are very expensive compared to elsewhere.

 

[macd]

useless information

The "boldly going" will be achieved with water for a start. I read somewhere that Thomas Crapper used small apples to simulate the solids. How will my pump cope with those?!

Graham: thought you might like something esoteric to muse on whilst skinning your knuckles wrestling hoses.

Mr Crapper, far from giving his name to something to which you are currently devoting your energies, was probably more a case of a man living up to his unsavoury name.

From Wiki (but amply supported by other references):
"It has often been claimed in popular culture that a euphemism for human waste, "****", originated with Thomas Crapper because of his association with lavatories. The most common version of this story is that American servicemen stationed in England during World War I saw his name on cisterns and used it as army slang, i.e., "I'm going to the crapper".

The word **** is actually of Middle English origin, and first appeared according to the Oxford English Dictionary in 1846[*] under a reference to a crapping ken, or a privy, where ken means a house.

Its most likely etymological origin is a combination of two older words, the Dutch krappen, to pluck off, cut off, or separate; and the Old French crappe, or siftings or waste or rejected matter, from medieval Latin crappa, chaff."

*Young Master Crapper was 9 or 10 at the time and unlikely to have done much inventing.

 

[VO5]

So's mine (also a Leesan install, though I'm not suggesting they're especially prone to overcomplication). It looks like the guts of the Space Shuttle in there.

My preferred design, though you need a bigger boat than mine to accommodate it, would be a tall narrow tank with a conical base tapering to a big valve, then vertical pipe down to a big seacock. Outlet pipe from the (Lavac) head goes directly into the top of the tank - no other diverter valves, siphon breaks, etc etc. The airspace in the top of the tank, and its breather, provide the siphon breaking function.

With the tank-bottom valve open, everything falls straight through the tank and out. With it closed, it's held until the valve is open. The tank would be above the waterline (hence the need for height unavailable on my little boat) and drain by gravity.

The top of the tank (and its inspection hatch, pump-out, rodding access down to the exit valve, etc) is got at through a deck plate so you never need to open stinky plumbing to the interior accommodation.

The above would be my ultimate simple, non-blockable, repairable system. What I have is about as far away from that as you can get.



There is such a device, used to pry open outer sheaths on some kinds of cabling I think. Three prongs which lie alongside each other to form a small cylinder when closed, but expand outwards when you squeeze the handle. The colloquial name is not appropriate to a family forum (or even this one) but the first word begins with C and the second word is "stretcher".

I'm not sure whether they're available in big enough sizes for plumbing hose.

Pete

I agree with you that holding tank design is primitive, to say the least.
When I bought my boat (US Flag) the previous owner had a plumbing business..
The aft heads stank to high heaven. No amount of flushing and holding tank emptying would make any difference. I contacted him...he ignored me...
It took days of trying to fathom out what was wrong.

In the nd ut turned out to be something very simple.

Someone (probably a child) had dropped a small face flannel into the heads and flushed it into the holding tank, where it remained.

When the tank was emptied, the flannel would float about and end up blocking the exit hole. Then not all the muck came out.

The next time the same...

Until the top of the tank was unscrewed and fishing about with a coathanger wire, the offending rag was hooked and fished out and disposed of.

No more stink.

 

[prv]

When the tank was emptied, the flannel would float about and end up blocking the exit hole. Then not all the muck came out.

That's why, in my hypothetical lottery-win custom boat, I'd be gunning for 4-inch valves and pipe on the holding tank outlet if it can possibly be arranged. The run would be two or three feet straight down, so I don't see why not. You'd need a bath-towel to block that up, not a mere face-flannel

Pete

 

[macd]

My preferred design, though you need a bigger boat than mine to accommodate it, would be a tall narrow tank with a conical base tapering to a big valve, then vertical pipe down to a big seacock. Outlet pipe from the (Lavac) head goes directly into the top of the tank - no other diverter valves, siphon breaks, etc etc. The airspace in the top of the tank, and its breather, provide the siphon breaking function.

With the tank-bottom valve open, everything falls straight through the tank and out. With it closed, it's held until the valve is open. The tank would be above the waterline (hence the need for height unavailable on my little boat) and drain by gravity.

Almost exactly what I have (on a not-v-big boat), except 1.5inch exit perhaps doesn't qualify as "very big". Simple. Cheap. Works a treat.

 

[Graham_Wright]

There is such a device, used to pry open outer sheaths on some kinds of cabling I think. Three prongs which lie alongside each other to form a small cylinder when closed, but expand outwards when you squeeze the handle. The colloquial name is not appropriate to a family forum (or even this one) but the first word begins with C and the second word is "stretcher".

I'm not sure whether they're available in big enough sizes for plumbing hose.

Pete

I used to use one of those for cable sheathing but it would not be man enough for hose. I too don't know if there is a more substantial device available. In the meantime, it is this week's poser for my staff to help with the boredom of churning out simple products.

 

[Wunja]

I used to use one of those for cable sheathing but it would not be man enough for hose. I too don't know if there is a more substantial device available. In the meantime, it is this week's poser for my staff to help with the boredom of churning out simple products.

How about a speculum...