Lee helm?

elton

elton

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I helmed a 32 foot yacht the other day, and battled constantly with the tiller when sailing windward (f5-6). The boat has an (easily) adjustable forestay. Should it be adjusted? I didn't like to comment to the proud new owner because I think he knows a lot more about sailing theory and practice than I, but I think something could be done.
 
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Assuming it is sloop rigged it sounds like the foresail is overpowering the mainsail.
Tradition would say that the backstay might need tightening up or a reef put in the foresail or a smaller foresail needs to be used.
What was the sail plan ?
 
Reverend Ludd said:
Assuming it is sloop rigged it sounds like the foresail is overpowering the mainsail.
Tradition would say that the backstay might need tightening up or a reef put in the foresail or a smaller foresail needs to be used.
What was the sail plan ?
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Sloop, yes. Would reefing have made it more neutral? I don't know if the backstay is adjustable, but the forestay definitely is. I guess if the forestay is adjustable (with a wheel thing) then the backstay would be also. We didn't heel too dramatically if that makes any difference.
 
Mmmm Lee helm. Not really experienced it myself, but I remember my Grandfather warning against boats with lee helm. Always want a boat to round up when over powered rather than bearing away.

Sounds like some trimming of the sails is required, or if it is bad, move the keel or the mast or both.
 
My stab at it would be looking at the foresail first, but tightening the backstay and creating some rake in the mast should in theory aid the condition.
 
A wheel type adjuster on the forestay sounds a bit unusual, I wonder if the boat has a known problem ?

Ideally the mast step needs to come aft a touch, which may or may not be possible; certainly rake the rig aft.

The CE centre of effort of the rig should be just aft of the CLR - centre of lateral resistance, keel rudder/skeg and hull, to give slight weather helm; in this case it sounds like the CE is too far forward.

Some boats exhibit lee helm when setting off under a large genoa in light airs, but the helm should balance up as she gets going; in the case of the OP's boat tried, the main needs to be kept full and powered up, and the headsail reefed / reduced, keeping that ratio as the wind increases by the sound of it.

I'd definitely check if the mast step has optional positions, quite possible if the mast is deck stepped - the fact the owner is new to the boat tends to make it look like the mast is in the wrong position, doesn't take much to upset the balance.
 
Assuming the standing rigging and mast is all set properly, then it would appear that the genoa/jib is overpowering the boat. Depowering can be achieved in many ways with adjustment of the cars, tensioning the halyard, or forestay, or both, or simply reefing, a 150% genoa can be very powerful if not balanced, especially in a f5 upwind.
Since I started racing this year I have been getting more weather helm than usual. I am now convinced that in order to try to get more speed everything was done to excess, we were often over canvassed and over tensioned, this resulted in a poor upwind performance, which seems improve when I go out with my family and take it more leisurely.
 
Of course any rudder on, weather or lee helm, will act as a brake so the ideal racing boat - in theory - should have a completely neutral, central helm & rudder.

In practice it is quite difficult to sail a yacht like this with 'nothing to steer her against' and no feel, though it works fine on performance dinghies.

On the other extreme I knew a lady yachtmaster who just constantly sawed away at the tiller, waggling it back & forth say 30 degrees either side as she talked, for no apparent reason !

She probably cursed every boat she sailed as not performing to spec'..:rolleyes:
 
It really isn't right to have lee helm in a good breeze. Apart from the safety element already mentioned, it is almost impossible to steer an efficient course as you cannot feel the weight of the helm. I was surprised that you say the boat wasn't heeling much with the winds we've had recently.

Lee/weather helm is mostly influenced and adjucted by sail balance and trimming, already covered above. The other contributory factor is the change in waterline shape as the boat heels, which increases the weather helm to a greater or lesser extent depending on the hull design.

I used to sail a T24 which was set up to have a nice gentle amount of weather helm once she got going, but in very light winds, ghosting along with every scrap of sail up, she had lee helm which required twice the concentration from the helmsman. I could never persuade the owner to take his cup of tea to the leeward rail to cancel out the lee helm!

Rob.
 
I freely admit I haven't a clue about the finer technical aspects of sailing, but what I do know is that this boat was hard work. I asked the owner if he had an autotiller but he was vague in his response, probably aware that the battery would have tired long before me.
 
elton said:
Come to think of it, it may be on the backstay :o
Click to expand...

Well if your not sure which stay the wheel was on are you sure it was Lee helm on the tiller? Doesn't the boat have wheel steering? ;)

Tell me. For how long now have you been forgetful. :p
 
fireball said:
Well if your not sure which stay the wheel was on are you sure it was Lee helm on the tiller? Doesn't the boat have wheel steering? ;)
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Tiller steering.

This was happening when sailing into the wind. Does that mean lee helm or what? I think I'm getting more confused. In fact I don't know why I asked the question 'cos it isn't even my boat :D

fireball said:
Tell me. For how long now have you been forgetful. :p
Click to expand...
Since I had 5 bottles of Brown Ale before I posted last night :p
 
elton said:
This was happening when sailing into the wind. Does that mean lee helm or what?
Click to expand...

Forget the helm / wheel thing for a moment.

Lee helm is where the boat tries to turn away from the wind ie into the Lee. The problem is that you are slowing the boat down by the rudder corrections trying to correct it all the time. (extra drag). The other problem is if you stop paying attention it may lead to a Gybe where the boat suddenly gets the wind behind it and slams the boom across to the other side. Bad news !!

So it is an over-powered foresail against the main unbalancing things.

All the above suggestions seem pretty valid.
What you need is a dingy sailor :)
 
I am beginning to suspect that Elton was experiencing excessive weather helm, and that he has got the language mixed up. As he says he is not particularly expert and 'hard work' on the helm is much more commonly associated with excessive weather helm. Many boats built in the last 30 years or so will sail reasonably well on a genoa alone so pernicious lee helm is I think pretty unusual.
 
I was also going to ask if you really meant lee helm.

lee helm as above would make the boat try to turn away from the wind so the tiller would feel very light and you would have to keep correcting by pushing the tiller down to leeward

It would be very unusual unless there was something very seriously wrong, esp when beating to windward in a good blow.

Heavy weather helm is not uncommon. It makes the boat try to turn up into the wind and you have to pull the tiller up to windward to correct it. It can need quite a bit of effort with both hands at times.
Remedy may be to flatten the mainsail by setting the traveller to the leeward end of its track. Tightening a flattening reef or Cunningham.
Reduce sail if really overpressed
 
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