Learning to Sail

Praxinoscope said:
I don’t recall rubbishing boats that have been modernised, what I said was that there were some boats in our small harbour that had been modernised that I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole and a couple that hadn’t which I would, what I didn’t say was that all the modernised boats in our harbour were unseaworthy, just some. It’s not the goodies such as furling genoa and self tailing winches (which unless you’re racing a lot I honestly don’t see the point of) but the design, construction and way the boat is maintained that makes it sea-worthy.

My ‘new’ boat is a 1981 Sadler 25 which has furling Genoa and single line reefing(first reef only) but still has rope and pulley vang and non- self tailing winches. Furling Genoa is great.
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I don’t disagree with you. What you said is that some boats in your harbour are rubbish (shock horror) whether modernised or not.

My post had nothing to do with whether old-fashioned boats are seaworthy (they are). It was saying:

- that most older boats in the market will have modernised sail handling systems (whatever you or I think of them)

- that if the OP is looking to learn To buy cheap boat to learn to sail on, it will probably have modernised sail handling, which makes seventies sailing manuals less relevant even if (following point 1) the boat is if seventies vintage.

I get your point about beautiful classics being beautiful classics and seaworthy too. I just don’t understand why you have taken issue with those points. The OP is unlikely to be able to buy, or learn to sail on, a classic yacht and manuals which tell him how to sail such a boat will be less useful on day one than one which talks about modern sailing gear and how to use it.

General point is I was not commenting on seaworthiness. I was talking about what he was likely to encounter on an older cheaper yacht that IS seaworthy.
 
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bitbaltic said:
I don’t disagree with you. What you said is that some boats in your harbour are rubbish (shock horror) whether modernised or not.

My post had nothing to do with whether old-fashioned boats are seaworthy (they are). It Ito was saying:

- that most older boats in the market will have modernised sail handling systems (whatever you or I think of them)

- that if the OP is looking to learn To buy cheap boat to learn to sail on, it will probably have modernised sail handling, which makes seventies sailing manuals less relevant even if (following point 1) the boat is if seventies vintage.

I get your point about beautiful classics being beautiful classics and seaworthy too. I just don’t understand why you have taken issue with those points. The OP is unlikely to be able to buy, or learn to sail on, a classic yacht and manuals which tell him how to sail such a boat will be less useful on day one than one which talks about modern sailing gear and how to use it.

General point is I was not commenting on seaworthiness. I was talking about what he was likely to encounter on an older cheaper yacht that IS seaworthy.
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I think we are probably roughly in agreement, I just felt from your earlier comment that you didn’t consider boats without the some or all the modernisation to be seaworthy. My point was that there are some boats with all those that I don’t think are seaworthy but some that don’t that are.
I agree with you point that a lot of the books suggested won’t deal with these modern developments, but does that matter too much as the basics are the same whether you are in a Mirror dinghy or a Moody 44 .
 
Praxinoscope said:
I think we are probably roughly in agreement, I just felt from your earlier comment that you didn’t consider boats without the some or all the modernisation to be seaworthy.
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We are in agreement, because that was not at all what I was saying. Apologies if I did not express myself well. (As a coda, I have sailed many miles on Gipsy Moth IV, and she obviously has no modern fit out, and I would obviously not call her unseaworthy- anything but ;) )

I was talking only about the applicability of 1970s ‘how to’ manuals to any boat you might buy, as a budget-limited beginner in 2018, from a sail handling point of view. Nothing to do with seaworthyiness.
 
bitbaltic said:
We are in agreement, because that was not at all what I was saying. Apologies if I did not express myself well. (As a coda, I have sailed many miles on Gipsy Moth IV, and she obviously has no modern fit out, and I would obviously not call her unseaworthy- anything but ;) )

I was talking only about the applicability of 1970s ‘how to’ manuals to any boat you might buy, as a budget-limited beginner in 2018, from a sail handling point of view. Nothing to do with seaworthyiness.
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Envy you having sailed on Gypsy Moth, I have sailed a couple of times on Zane Spray before she ended up at the bottom of the Irish Sea.
 
Here's my two cents' worth.
A book that describes sailing a modern boat will easily lead the complete beginner to believe that most of the equipment is essential for safe sailing or 'voyaging under sail'. Nothing could be further than the truth! Yes, they are desirable and, certainly they do make life easier, there is no doubt about that, but essential they are not. Experience on dinghies and later moving up to something larger but still basic arms one with enough knowledge to be able to make informed choices that are not based on what one is told but rather on what one has learned.
My first boat-with-a-lid after my Enterprise was a Vivacity 20. Around two years later came a Centaur. Based on what I had learned I added a roller-furling Genoa, slab-reefing for the main instead of the awkward rolling beam, self-tailing winches (useful if I was sailing solo). The old winches with the captive handle were moved to the mast for the halyards because there the handles couldn't go walkabout. I put slides on the luff of the main so that it would be under control and would be easier to go down into a (home-made) stack-pack without spilling all over the coachroof. I made and fitted mast steps so that I wouldn't need any outside help and I installed an electric windlass for the anchor. I later installed a chart-plotter.
Off-hand these are the items that I remember. By no means were any of these essential but they did make the boat 'better'. I can safely say that my experience on dinghies and the Vivacity went a long way in helping me to decide based on what I had learned.
In those days a 30-footer was the stuff that dreams were made of. Today a starter boat seems to be 35-feet minimum and a 40-footer much more desirable... even by neophytes who know zilch about sailing!
Yes, maybe I am out-dated (72 next December) but I believe that building on one's personal experience is still the best way to proceed.
Feel free to tsk-tsk at the rant of an old man; I don't mind. ;)
 
My wife and I did a 5 day Level 2 keel boat course with an RYA qualified instructor (Now sadly passed away) on Windermere. It tought us basic boat handing on a 30ft+ Beneteau. Whilst not the be all and end all of sailing it tought us enough to get started. We bought our 24ft boat a few weeks later and realised what it had not taught us but that we learnt from other people on the jetties and through this forum.
 
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