Learning to Sail in a dayboat

[Ed Sned]

Mrs S has finally agreed that she would be happier and more confident going offshore on larger boats (we have a 37ft trimaran) if she learnt how to sail properly in smaller boats, something I have been gently pushing throughout our 18yr marriage.
She doesn't want to learn in a dinghy, largely as a result of a fear of capsizing. Hence I want to find a gentle instructor with something like a Devon Yawl, Squib, Daring, Sunbeam etc in the Solent area (ideally mainland rather than island side - we're moored on Beaulieu). We sail together all the time with remarkably little stress, largely as I tend to sail the boat solo (meaning she gets very bored); however I think she'd learn more from someone else.
Any ideas?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Whereabouts in the Solent? There’s the victory class in Porthsmouth, and XOD fleets at Hamble and Lymington that might fit the bill.

Ha, idiot, just saw Beaulieu. Royal Lym then, there’ll be someone looking for crew.

 

[Minerva]

As an oddball offering - is there a neilsons type holiday you can go and play in the sun for a week. You on something fast & fun and her on a training keelboat? I bet lessons would be better in the sun when followed by a cocktail or two…

 

[LouisBrowne]

My sailing club offers RYA keelboat courses, levels 1,2 and 3, in Sonars. These are run at the weekend and you don't have to be a member. The club is Sussex YC which is based in Shoreham: this might be a bit off the beaten track for your wife but I suppose there would be Solent clubs that offer something similar.

 

[ProDave]

Is the issue the Tri does not heel in the wind and gives less feedback about conditions?

What do you define as a "day boat" Would a small cruiser fit the bill? Most small cruisers would not be expected to capsize, but if the is used to level sailing on the tri, she might be alarmed when a mono keel boat starts leaning over at 30 degrees in a blow.

 

[ylop]

You don’t say what age Mrs S is but I’m guessing from the fact the she is married for 18yrs she is AT LEAST 40 and likely older.

Now there will be people here who sail dinghies in their 70s and who hop around keel boats like they are children BUT they have been doing it their whole life. Depending exactly what you mean by day boat there may be lots of moving around required. If she wants calm cruising rather than a workout she might not get it.

Things also happen more dramatically on small racey boats, if tried to get my wife to sail dinghies when we were young but she didn’t like it - she has often commented (having come to sailing in her 40s) how much calmer and more controlled a yacht is. Of course a trimaran may contradict that!

I know everyone here says learn in dinghies so you can feel the wind etc (and indeed I did) but I’m not sure it really makes sense unless you are trying to be really good rather than vaguely competent.

I do agree though that learning anything from a spouse is really difficult (and you might need to adapt to not expecting everything done your way is she is taught a different approach that works).

I think finding the right instructor rather than the right boat may be more important. If she was coming to the Clyde I would point her in the direction of a female instructor who is I’m guessing is in her early 50s who has a very calm and relaxed approach and will adapt her training to what you want; she didn’t learn to sail until she herself was an adult. She can’t be the only one in the country - and of course there will be blokes who can do this too - it might be an area where not having done it since you were 8 is an advantage to empathising with other adult learners.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Is the issue the Tri does not heel in the wind and gives less feedback about conditions?

What do you define as a "day boat" Would a small cruiser fit the bill? Most small cruisers would not be expected to capsize, but if the is used to level sailing on the tri, she might be alarmed when a mono keel boat starts leaning over at 30 degrees in a blow.

A tri isn’t the easiest boat to learn on, not sure it’s to do with lack of heel. The big speed changes and resulting AWS and AWD changes are hard sometimes, handling under engine in the breeze, that’s always a challenge.difficulty in holding the boat close hauled is common too, the AWD is always forward. My wife took a while to acclimatise to XOD sailing, and still hates it in a blow. She’s sailed only multis for 38 years.

 

[MontyMariner]

How about a Hobby Cat?

 

[Stemar]

OK if there isn't much wind, but

 

[The Q]

Had you been in Norfolk I'd have recommended my club , https://horning-sailing.club/, as well as teaching up to 80 children per year, they have a couple of keelboats for teaching adults. They have had women only sailing events too.

This is a couple racing in a similar keelboat.

 

[Ed Sned]

Thanks all, some really good suggestions here.

We've had monohulls in the past and even a Mini650 (which to be fair, she was terrified of), and so the issue isn't specific to our current multihull. She's fine helming in straight-lines and doing night watches when we're doublehanded offshore. However she (and I) would just like her to have more confidence in, and enjoy more, close-quarters manoeuvring, tacking/gybing, sail trimming, sailing downwind in waves etc. Yes you can learn those in small cruisers, but it's a bit like doing brain surgery with boxing gloves on (no insult intended to anyone). When I manoeuvre our boat at close quarters, she finds it very stressful, largely because she doesn't have the same feel for turning circles, stopping distances etc (we've had to short-tack a reasonably large tri up the Beaulieu River and sail on to the mooring a few times this summer, after recurring problems with the engine, and that sends her blood pressure stratospheric. I come from twin-wire dinghies originally, so it feels a bit less stressful)

The learning from someone other than me is key, and ideally not someone who's 18. I was a qualified dinghy instructor many years ago, but it makes no difference; they always say you should never learn to drive with your dad for the same reasons (albeit you generally can't divorce your dad). As well as Rockley Point and Sunsail in Greece, I taught at the Island Cruising Club in Devon (now sadly gone), where we used to teach older clients in Squibs, Salcombe Yawls and Solings, and they were perfect for the kind of thing I'm after; agile, with very direct feedback, but less worrying about keeping it upright.

Thanks all. I think I may seek out an independent instructor, and then once I have them, work out how we might be able to borrow a suitable boat.

 

[ylop]

However she (and I) would just like her to have more confidence in, and enjoy more, close-quarters manoeuvring, tacking/gybing, sail trimming, sailing downwind in waves etc. Yes you can learn those in small cruisers, but it's a bit like doing brain surgery with boxing gloves on (no insult intended to anyone). When I manoeuvre our boat at close quarters, she finds it very stressful, largely because she doesn't have the same feel for turning circles, stopping distances etc (we've had to short-tack a reasonably large tri up the Beaulieu River and sail on to the mooring a few times this summer, after recurring problems with the engine, and that sends her blood pressure stratospheric. I come from twin-wire dinghies originally, so it feels a bit less stressful)

I'm not sure she's going to get a feel for close quarters manoeuvres, stopping distance and turning circles etc from a small monohull that translate well to a 37ft tri? I've never sailed a tri - but I can see Chiara's point about the acceleration meaning you start trimming or heading for one wind and the apparent wind changes significantly. If she's nervous doing it all in a flighty small boat might be worse. Do you execute every tack/gybe like you are racing or could some instruction for you in calm, controlled sailing also be helpful? If she's getting stressed when you are manouvering does than mean you aren't communicating well? Are you shouting to be heard over engine/wind? I've discovered that "shouts" are percevied as angry when their aim is just to convey a message - esspecially if repeated because the recipient didn't acknowledge it (on in my case often did quiety facing in the wrong direction!) - I know some people will laugh but bluetooth headsets are a bit of a game changer for us - a calm, clear set of descriptions in both directions.

Thanks all. I think I may seek out an independent instructor, and then once I have them, work out how we might be able to borrow a suitable boat.

don't rule out getting an instructor on your boat, perhaps to sail with you both for a few hours - drop you off somewhere for a prolonged lunch and then pick you up late PM (it may take longer than a day) and show what she has learned and what you need to do to ensure she can continue to practice those skills. It would be very easy to go on a course, learn stuff but still defer to you so that she rapidly loses confidence again. I think that instructor needs to be familiar with tri's like yours. Expecting the newly trainer person to migrate the skills from dayboat to 37' tri is optimistic, I don't know your wife, but it would be very easy to do one tack in your boat say it feels totally different and then just leave you to lead again.

 

[Ed Sned]

You'd have to ask my wife, but I don't think I'm too shouty. I definitely have been in the past when I was newer to skippering, but I think I'm much mellower now (and more in control). In any event, I'm now used to racing this boat solo and so it's quite the opposite; I tend to quietly go about doing it all myself, which isn't the ideal situation either; she wants to help and get involved but feels it's too big and scary to learn on. As Chiara will attest, parking a tri in any kind of wind isn't for the light-hearted.
We actually had a really good couple of hours in the club's Wanderer dinghy a few weekends ago, and she came away bouncing, having helmed for 90% of the outing. It was a near perfect set of circumstances though - 24 degrees, cloudless skies and 8 knots of wind. I don't know what the chances are of replicating that are...
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions; all good food for thought.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I have to say that Mrs C would be on her 3rd litter of kittens by the time we’d tacked up to Gins farm That requires firmness of spirit above and beyond the call of duty.

 

[The Q]

Sailing on the broads is definitely the place to learn close quarter boat handling.. we think six inches apart is a long way...
When I've sailed at non broads clubs I've been accused by others of sailing too close..

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Sailing on the broads is definitely the place to learn close quarter boat handling.. we think six inches apart is a long way...
When I've sailed at non broads clubs I've been accused by others of sailing too close..

It’s very much like that in the XOD fleet, but doing it in a boat that can double it’s speed in a gust is a bit different. Not to mention the density of moorings in that river, the 8 metre beam of the boat, and the 10 second width of the channel. That’s just the deep water, it’s full of moored boats.

 

[The Q]

It’s very much like that in the XOD fleet, but doing it in a boat that can double it’s speed in a gust is a bit different. Not to mention the density of moorings in that river, the 8 metre beam of the boat, and the 10 second width of the channel. That’s just the deep water, it’s full of moored boats.

8 metre beam? That's 26ft wide, it'll take you ten seconds to move from one side to the other on a tack.



Though in actual fact they very similar in style to our Reedling class which also accelerates very rapidly.

Though at 19ft LOA they're a bit smaller, our regular outside the club house river racing is on waters from 180ft wide outside the clubhouse , down to 90 ft further up river. Though on the 3 Rivers race there are a couple of sections of river down to 50ft (that includes boats up to 45ft LOA).

A video of this years 3RR which was light winds to start with.

The 2024 3RR was a bit windier the course record was broken 50 miles in under 7 hours ( after handicap)

The race has this hazard..

You have to drop the mast 4 times for the 3 bridges.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The 8 metre beam is the chap’s trimaran, 37ft, a little bigger than mine, at 9.2m and 7.4m beam. Tacking one of those up a narrow, mooring infested river requires courage, skill and commitment! Your keelboats are indeed similar to the XOD, 20ft x 6ft. If the tide were against you, progress would be difficult and slow, but tacking a 20ft keelboat in confined water is a bit less dangerous! Usually on the tri we don’t have to do the whole 7.2m, we sit in the cockpit. Extra crew can be banished to the outriggers as ballast of course. Ballast on the lee outrigger is helpful in light winds too.