Learning Curve - Oct YM

[jimi]

Ym YM oceanmaster (aged 19)

Fastrack YM "had not been out in more than F6 and on the YM course we had always stayed in sheltered waters or port when there was a gale warning"

Comments please !!!

 

[AlanPound]

My aviation IR (Instrument Rating - read 'bad weather') instructor (old boy, done everything, been everywhere), flew in a Tomahawk (very small 2-seater aircraft) in rather poor weather from Cranfield to Bournmouth, to have his annual CAA *examiner rating* (IRE) assessment by a CAA examiner examiner (if you see what I mean)...

On arrival, he met the CAA IRE examiner, who looked out the window and said ... "can't possibly do your IR assessment today - the weather is too bad"...

... so my instructor climbed back into the aircraft, and went back home...


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[AlanPound]

... In a number of recent posts, there have been evidence of differing views about what might constitute 'unnecessary risk', and what is simply 'experience'...

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[steve_cronin]

See my comments....

in "Would you rent your car to a 19yo" above

Steve Cronin

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[jimi]

Re: See my comments....

Oops sorry Steve.. didn't see it earlier!

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[zefender]

I think the F6 rule says quite a lot about the value of the fasttrack scheme. But he wasn't the skipper (or was he?) and the 19 year old seemed to have better qualifications. The fact he was 19 didn't really bother me either - there's plenty of very young world class sailors about. I couldn't help wondering how different the 19 year old's story of events might be. I wonder whether the writer 'took charge' and whether this intimidated the skipper. Who really made the decision to go, given the weather? Who really should have checked the inventory for safety equipment?

Yes, the rolling genoa incident wasn't that clever, but stuff happens. Their main problem was that almost everyone was chucking up all over the place. Should the skipper have set the boat as his priority, not the immediate care of the sick crew?

I have a feeling the main lesson learned was that there should be absolute clarity as to who is in charge.

By the way, what boat was it Jimi?

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[steve_cronin]

Beneteau 38 (NM)

..

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[Twister_Ken]

Sea sickness

Can be a very real problem. The problem is associated with hull form. Modern benjenbav types have (in my view) a higher seasickosity quotient when beating than more traditional boats. The situation tends to be reversed on a downwind point-of-sailing.

Did anyone see the quote in one of the current magazines, about the comfort of bluewater boats? It went along the lines of "Look at a boat out of the water. If you see more topsides than antifouling it will be uncomfortable."

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[zefender]

Re: Shock horror agreement

Tend to agree. There is of course one advantage of the modern design in that the awfulness is over a little more quickly.

Agree too about the topsides antifouling ratio. Only the on the understanding that this applies to motion comfort in a biggish sea and that other comfort considerations, the opposite is often the case.

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[Mirelle]

Re: Shock horror agreement

I have a boat with more antifouling than topsides, and a young family who suffer manfully from seasickness (clearly inherited from their mother; I am almost immune!) Beating seldom causes trouble, but running in a left over sea, or the smell of diesel, does it every time!

I don't entirely agree about general comfort, though. Yes, we have less space below decks, but a heavyish displacement traditional hull form and wood construction means:

Little or no noise at anchor - certainly no slamming - and much less movement.
Wide, level, un-obstructed side decks and foredeck, with bulwarks.
Space to carry a clinker sailing dinghy on deck.
Fresh air below without drips or worries about whether it will rain when we've left a hatch open or depending on toy Dorade vents, which IMHO don't work.
Equable temperature - cool when it's hot, and vice versa - in the saloon
No risk of getting chucked around the cabin at sea.
A solid fuel stove, with a copper kettle singing gently on it and ample lounging space nearby - Eberspachers just don't compare!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 12/09/2003 11:05 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[duncan]

Re: Shock horror agreement

put like that it sounds idyllic

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[AndrewB]

Quite right! The real mistake ...

... was that the 19yo skipper did not correctly judge his crew. They were not sufficiently experienced to cope with a gale, and too likely to become liabilities. He should have gone back.

Incidentally, the 19yo's gale experience came from somewhere in Biscay. An F8 in open ocean is very much easier to deal with than on a channel crossing.

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[Mirelle]

At risk of inflaming passions....

I think that explains a good deal - the chucking up, and perhaps the awkwardness of rolling the headsail. You do need quite a lot of effort, with many of the headsail gears fitted to these boats, and luffing to shake it can be nerve wracking for the seasickness-afflicted, and might have been avoided for that reason.

This is a big boat for an inexperienced crew to handle - the gear is quite sizeable, and in a strong wind the forces generated can seem alarming.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 12/09/2003 11:54 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[steve_cronin]

But shouldn\'t a yachtmaster

or even TWO yachtmastersd have known this beforehand?

Steve Cronin

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[Mirelle]

Re: But shouldn\'t a yachtmaster

Yes, certainly, but then I tend to agree with what you write about the value of the YM courses!

It seems to me that the value of sailing school courses varies a great deal; some people seem to come out of some of them as very impressive amateur seamen, with their heads well screwed on, despite only sailing for a short time, whilst others don't!

The 19 year old was perhaps subject to a lot of peer pressure, which may have influenced his judgement.

When I was that age I was sailing an 18ft cabin boat mainly singlehanded, and I might well have made all sorts of mistakes, if put in charge of a 38 footer. Indeed, I am sure I would have done.

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[marki]

Re: Shock horror agreement

I have a boat with more topsides than antifouling and also a young family. Recently sailed to Cherbourg - 35 to 40kts of wind - and 10 yr old could happily sail boat -@circa 12kts - courtesy of Bruce Farr. I love traditional boats but modern boats have their merits too.

Re Learning Curve I was quite frankly amazed by the article!

It is the skippers sole duty to do a safety and inventory check.

The furling method as pointed out sounds like the only reason for the damage to the sail. The problem was not a lack of crew but trying to furl a fully powered up sail.

In all my years sailing/racing I have never seen or heard of a mast falling down because of a flogging headsail.

The article says that the genny backed. They were about to gybe and that certainly could have done major damage. To quote "at that moment the sail backed and he tried to pull it in on the wrong side" ie gooswinged fully powered up and sailing by the lee!!

When faced with a decision as to elect for Cherbourg or Alderney (both 22 miles) uptide Cherbourg was chosen rather than downtide Alderney hence SOG of 2 to 3kts. Alderney would have been quicker. In any event it would hardly have taken 7 to 10 hours as the tide would have turned!

...........and on and on and on. What also surprised me was the lessons learnt. None of the problems would appear to have been insurmountable by an experienced crew. Something is wrong if the Yachtsmaster qualification is given out to people who simply don't have the necessary training/experience. Any member of the public and indeed any potential skipper is surely entitled to rely on a Yachtsmaster being adequately trained. Perhaps the RYA might like to reflect on this.

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[tome]

Re: Shock horror agreement

Having now read the article, I'm amazed. The author describes the onset of their genoa wrap as "Peter trimmed the genoa whilst I steered as close downwind as possible". Going onto a broad reach with the main blanketing would have depowered the jib sufficiently to get a good few turns off without any chance of it backing - I've used this technique in big winds and can get the all-important first few turns off the tamed genoa without even touching the sheets. Risking a gybe on a run doesn't seem to be the reaction of an experienced crew, and the backed genoa was a predictable outcome. At least they had the sense to use the spinnaker halyards to tame the resultant wrap.

I'm beginning to agree with the view that this is a cooked up tale!

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[steve_cronin]

Do we smell fish Mr Editor?

Conspiracy theory eh?

Are Messrs Gelder & Jermain chuckling into their Guinness in some docklands bar over this?

Was it "Lets cook up a tale & see how many spot it on the website?"

Well I'll put my hand up for being caught first if it was but I'd like to see the Royal Yottin Arsociation review the issuing of a couple of tickets if it was genuine!

Steve Cronin

.

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[Mirelle]

Worthy of JDS and Bill Beavis

I was well caught, also.

Up to "Polyestermite" standards, that one. Well done, whoever cooked it up.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 12/09/2003 15:10 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[marki]

Re: Shock horror agreement

As you point out a broad reach is exactly the place to be. Too high and the genny powers up. On the other hand see the genny even begin to back - move up quickly. Spini halyards were good idea but 2 of them on a charter beneteau 38? Also their SOG of 2 or 3kts would indicate tide ebbing in the Channel. If they had kept going to St Malo they would have meet the flood against the wind in the Race of Alderney. Might have been interesting. Surely they should have diverted well before that.

Finally and sorry i can't resist this but as a racing sailor if a foresail is damaged, in a mess or whatever we usually drop it! Even if the furler was jammed they could have cut it unfurled, dropped it and saved the sail. Their comment that they would be more likely to find a rigger sailmaker in Cherbourg is odd. Why a rigger? Also what exactly was a sailmaker to do with a trashed genny?

I don't wish to be a racing d*ck but 2 yachtmasters behaving like this?!? Sounds like "Carry on Cruising". Just need Syd James & Co. If this is a joke or something fine. If not it is not fair on all those people who read this kind of thing for advice and ideas.

They finish " I don't think we treated the sea with enough respect " Then why not start now.

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