Leak in keelson

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Boh999

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Hi!

We have a leak along the edge of the keelson, it looks like the plastic has cracked.

This is just below the drain plug, which some previous owner seem to have mounted from the outside using wooden screws!

However it doesn’t seem to leak from the drain plug or the two screws. (2 visible in image, could be more).

A very tiny leak but bothers us.

This is a 1970s Norlin 37. They have a reputation to be overdimensioned and solid built.

The keel bolts look alright. Would be major hassle to get the boat out of the water as we’re underway to the Caribbean, currently in Europe.

Can, on this kind of boat, the keel get detached? I am reasoning (could be wrong) that even if water has found its way into here, perhaps from a long distance and from above, the keel still cannot get detached from the boat? If so we could “pour” epoxy resin all over the place until no more leak. As a short-term solution, maybe te her out of the water in Tobago and Trinidad where the prices at lower, make a major overhaul...

As a detached keel means certain death, we would like to know more.

Pics:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oH1MDiFMCeWekGkwi-ru5Nkr33V0fpfn
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13Nc6zYYPeXY8y_VwycHHkYaVh7t7-LON

Thanks,
 
There's a lot of cracking visible, I wonder whether a previous owner has covered the area with floodcoat to disguise problems?

I'd want to get the boat lifted now and inspected by a good surveyor.
 
Unless I knew for a fact that water was coming from another area, I think it would be fool hardy to cross the Atlantic with the pictures and your description.

In the trade winds there will be higher alternating loads for a long duration with the yacht rolling. If the damage is serious these conditions could make the situation worse.

I would be worrying about the risk of rapid water ingress if the defect was made worse. I also doubt that pouring in epoxy would be effective if the cracks are moving as epoxy is some what brittle, also a high probability of a poor bond as the preparation will be poor by just pouring down the crack

You should lift the boat and have it checked soonest.
 
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Assume because you have keel bolts the keel is bolted on to either the hull or a moulded stub. If this is the case and seawater is actually getting in through those cracks then something is seriously wrong. Much more important to look at the external area around the keel for signs of failure there.

As suggested it could just be cracks on the inside which have been covered with flowcoat and the water is not coming from the outside, but don't think i would be going anywhere without a good survey.
 
I agree with Tranona, with suspicion of the flowcoating finish that seems lumpy and poor quality and in multiple layers and I suspect a later addition. There are multiple cracks. If leaking sea water I suspect she has had a serious grounding and needs a proper survey. I cannot fully assess pic 1, which looks to me to have two studs cut off flush with gelcoat - surely not. I note these are IOR style boats and likely hard raced in 1970s. I am assuming structure is a moulded GRP stub keel with lead keel (googled spec) bolted on.
 
Previous owner says keel is bolted with 13 bolts and “no way it could go off”. He continues “minor leak - pump out, major leak - survey”.

Boat was surveyed at purchase by us 3 years ago but on the hard. He says nothing about keel problems etc in the protocol. I do however have an intuitive feel that he wasn’t super-serious. But expensive!

Wife just found the bilge pump to leak and eventhough we were careful to wipe areas dry while troubleshooting it could have dropped from that unit.

So hope it is that, troubleshooting continues...

The keel is indeed lead, encapsulated in GRP.

Question is (might survey her anyway, but out of interest), can this boat loose her keel as “easily” as a certain Beneteau? Or is the construction so different it is impossible? All keel bolts look alright, as new, no signs of corrosion. In fact all stainless hardware from when she was built is in perfect condition, which can not be said about some stuff I’ve mounted (poor stainless quality).
 
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Boh999 said:
Previous owner says keel is bolted with 13 bolts and “no way it could go off”. He continues “minor leak - pump out, major leak - survey”.

Boat was surveyed at purchase by us 3 years ago but on the hard. He says nothing about keel problems etc in the protocol. I do however have an intuitive feel that he wasn’t super-serious. But expensive!

Wife just found the bilge pump to leak and eventhough we were careful to wipe areas dry while troubleshooting it could have dropped from that unit.

So hope it is that, troubleshooting continues...

The keel is indeed lead, encapsulated in GRP.
Click to expand...

If you bought the boat three years ago it's not exactly the previous owner's problem.

You need to find where exactly the leak is coming from, then proceed from there. Certainly don't risk it any further than you can swim back in the meantime.

I don't understand the 13 keel bolts Vs encapsulated lead keel.
 
Boh999 said:
Previous owner says keel is bolted with 13 bolts and “no way it could go off”. He continues “minor leak - pump out, major leak - survey”.

Boat was surveyed at purchase by us 3 years ago but on the hard. He says nothing about keel problems etc in the protocol. I do however have an intuitive feel that he wasn’t super-serious. But expensive!

Wife just found the bilge pump to leak and eventhough we were careful to wipe areas dry while troubleshooting it could have dropped from that unit.

So hope it is that, troubleshooting continues...

The keel is indeed lead, encapsulated in GRP.
Click to expand...

Ignore anything the previous owner says, the photos reveal attempts to cover up problems, with several apparent applications of flowcoat. You must get the boat out of the water and properly surveyed, now rather than later, and find the real extent of the problem. As you said yourself "As a detached keel means certain death, we would like to know more."
 
lpdsn said:
If you bought the boat three years ago it's not exactly the previous owner's problem.

You need to find where exactly the leak is coming from, then proceed from there. Certainly don't risk it any further than you can swim back in the meantime.

I don't understand the 13 keel bolts Vs encapsulated lead keel.
Click to expand...

True, but figured “no harm asking”.
 
pvb said:
Ignore anything the previous owner says, the photos reveal attempts to cover up problems, with several apparent applications of flowcoat. You must get the boat out of the water and properly surveyed, now rather than later, and find the real extent of the problem. As you said yourself "As a detached keel means certain death, we would like to know more."
Click to expand...

We are in the Netherlands now. If we were to lift her in Dover, England (less language difficulties), would you happen to know how much it could cost and what place to contact?

Thanks
 
Boh999 said:
If there indeed is a problem, what kind of repairs am I looking forward to, please? Any price indication on that perhaps?
Click to expand...

A good surveyor will guide you on the likely price of any required work, and should inspect any work as it progresses to ensure it's being done properly.
 
Boh if you look around you will find lots of better prices places to haul out in the Netherlands and they do know a thing or two about boats .
Has so many have said here , get her out and looked at , by the way the language isn't a problem , I don't speak a word of Dutch but when every I been there I not met anyone who couldn't speak good English .
Please get her out for your wife sake .
 
Boh999 said:
So hope it is that, troubleshooting continues...

The keel is indeed lead, encapsulated in GRP.

Question is (might survey her anyway, but out of interest), can this boat loose her keel as “easily” as a certain Beneteau? Or is the construction so different it is impossible? All keel bolts look alright, as new, no signs of corrosion. In fact all stainless hardware from when she was built is in perfect condition, which can not be said about some stuff I’ve mounted (poor stainless quality).
Click to expand...

It is almost never the bolts that fail so the fact that you have 13 of them is neither here nor there - they have an enormous safety factor. The cause of failure is almost always the surrounding structure - and that is where your problems seem to lie. If indeed the hull is cracked all the way through sufficient that sea water is coming in suggest early signs of failure.

You need to understand the principles of boats designed to the IOR rule to appreciate that weight does not necessarily mean strength - often rather the opposite. The rule encouraged boats with poor stability and large rigs with huge overlapping headsails. To restore the stability they commonly used heavy keels giving high ballast ratios (and comparatively low hull weights). However the keel is a poor shape for stability being large high up and tapering down. Despite this it was common to use large crews sitting on the weather rail to help the boat stand up to its sail area.

The result means they make relatively poor shorthanded cruising boats unless the rig is detuned, although helped by loading up stores. In addition many will have had hard lives including possibly grounding the keel so not surprising if keel problems including incipient failure of the keel supporting structure are found later on in its life. Remember you have nearly 4 tons of lead hanging off the bottom of the boat, trying to bend the hull as it resists the power of the rig.

So, your issue is not about the stainless in the keel bolts but about the fundamental design and construction of the hull and its ability to withstand the loads placed on it over the last 45 years or so. The state of the area around the keel bolts in your photo suggest it is showing signs of failure, or has in the past and been covered up.

Suggest you don't stop at Dover but carry on to the Solent and haul out in one of the Hamble yards where you will find arguably the most knowledgeable surveyors and repairers for this type of boat.
 
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