Le Havre to the Med by canal in an Oceanis 45

[Grehan]

I would do nothing but encourage people to venture into the inland waterways of France. " . . all you will see on the canals are its bank and trees . . " is a bit wide of the mark but there are stretches of peaceful countryside interspersed with cute villages, historic towns and some magnificent cities! And I applaud your keen as mustard spirit of adventure.

However . . I am a little concerned about your - current - level of competence (and maybe also your partner's?). Sailing-wise, day-hops are all very well but Brittany, Biscay, Cape St Vincent, the Straits and the Golfe du Lion (which you'll come into at the southern end of the canals) have the real potential to kick up rough, even if they can also be fairly calm given the right conditions. Even for those peaceful canals, basic seamanship and handling skills are pretty necessary. I think you need to go beyond a couple of weeks Whitsunday sailing and weekends on a dinghy (if I read you right). As I've noted, you will need ICC as a measure of competence, which you'll need to take in Oz, plus you'll need the CEVNI endorsement which is basically COLGREGS (put simply, the rules of the sea) in the inland waterway context.

You can also have some good fun during the Oz summer between now and 'then' (i.e taking the 'through' canals route or the 'outside' coastal route) doing some learning, getting some practice and passing a couple of exams. Me, I'd recommend it.

 

[Tranona]

As I've noted, you will need ICC as a measure of competence, which you'll need to take in Oz, plus you'll need the CEVNI endorsement which is basically COLGREGS (put simply, the rules of the sea) in the inland waterway context.

That is no longer the case. As of this year the RYA can issue ICC to some non-nationals (including Australians) and residents who are non nationals. Information on the RYA site.

 

[Grehan]

I don't think the O.P has a qualification that the RYA would simply issue an ICC on, a practical/theory test has to be passed. But since the ICC can be 'sat' in Oz I don't think the RYA is authorised to. Or maybe that last point is the thing that's changed . . The CEVNI test can be taken online I think, at the RYA website.

 

[Tranona]

Pretty sure that he can just take the ICC test or a Day Skipper in UK and get an ICC. You don't need a qualification per se to get an ICC, although if starting from scratch a Day Skipper makes sense as you get the tuition and practical experience as well.

 

[Grehan]

By 'qualification' I meant that the OP doesn't appear to have taken any tests, got any certifs, that the RYA would issue an ICC on, as they do Day Skipper, etc.
And by 'which you'll need to take in Oz' I was rather thinking it would be more convenient, more practical, for him to do so whilst he was still there rather than learning and getting tested when he arrived in UK (assuming that's what he's going to do) before joining his Oceanis 45 in Le Havre.
That's a pretty big boat - she'll look after them but she'll also take a bit of learning-how-to-handle. IMHO, of course.

 

[Tranona]

You can get preparation courses leading straight to the ICC practical test, but for a novice the DS would be a better preparation.

One route for the OP is to have the boat delivered to UK and get some own boat instruction alongside a DS course which would be better preparation than taking qualification in OZ and jumping in at the deep end straight into the canals. Little bit of up front investment in getting to know the boat and learning to handle it in our confined waters would pay off in the long run.

 

[gavin_lacey]

All the major manufacturers can deliver a boat direct into the meditteranean. Frequently in a choice of countries. Far better than trying to do a delivery passage in a new boat with next to no experience. Even hiring a delivery skipper for an assisted passage is not a particularly good experience for a novice. Delivery skippers keep boats moving and only stop when needed. A world of difference between delivering and cruising.

The boat the OP proposes buying is an expensive bit of kit. I cannot imagine an insurance company accepting the risk. I would suggest that a coastal skipper qualification would be the minimum target pre purchase if he intends offshore sailing. Even then someone with more experience would probably be demanded for any long passages eg biscay.

 

[OldBawley]

Since this thread is moving to “licences “ I would like to give my opinion.
Point is that to pass the French canals a “ ICC” is needed.
Me old man, have done a lot of canals. In France, Belgium, Holland and Germany. Back in the 80`s I had a annual trip from Breskens to Paris. Man only, we had a lot of fun. Up the canals, down by sea. Have a licence to steer anything as long as it is not commercial. Motor yachts, mono´s and catamarans, for a while skippered for money till the Turks started to sail themselves.
We passed a year doing the French canals with our own old varnished Bawley, no scratch. ( Apart from been hit by hire boat when moored. ) Did many of the canals up AND down, France and the canals are magnificent.
Last time we past the canals was 2000. Licence ok then.
Now cruising liveaboard full time for 13 years in the Med, done France, Italy, Greece,Turkey and back. Getting old, problems with family, lots of travelling “Home” so thinking of moving to the south of France canals.
No ICC but a 30 year old licence, and lots of ships papers, non of witch is recognised by baby officials. All pre computer, all real paper, no plastic. All perfectly legal, but pre computer.
Changing my old licence for a new plastic one is not possible because I changed nationality.
Tried it, no way.
Not keen on flying “Home”, renting an hotel and doing a course, after all, I have the papers and a lot of miles.
So my plan is to sail to France and on entering the first lock, it is going to be a person I know very well, who has a plastic ICC but no knowledge at all ( in some country’s one gets an ICC just by been a member of a yacht club ) who is going to be captain of the yacht.
Any thoughts?
I do know it is very naughty.

 

[Grehan]

Whisper it ever so softly (and don't rely on it).
In the many years I've been on the canals, I've never been asked for my ICC/CEVNI. . .
So unless you cause trouble or a calamity you might well be ok.
You will, however, almost certainly be checked for your Vignette and maybe also proof of insurance.
http://www.french-waterways.com/resources/vnf-guide.html

 

[Tranona]

( in some country’s one gets an ICC just by been a member of a yacht club ) who is going to be captain of the yacht.

That is simply not true. The requirements for issuing an ICC are laid down by the UN and the issuing is by governments (who may delegate the actual process to another organisation).

See the RYA information on the ICC, then you will know what the real situation is.

 

[OldBawley]

As I wrote, all papers are ok, just old. In 2000 our papers ware asked in every French coastal harbour ( West coast ) Always polite and correct. In 1988 we had the boat chained to the pontoon in Le Havre because we ware flying the blue European flag. They asked for my chain and my padlock, gave me the key back. It was all a joke, the guys just wanted my girlfriend to stay a few more days. The chandlers could not supply a regulatory flag for our country on short notice ( end of October )
so we sewed one by hand out of old rags, the red part came from a knitted sweater.
The uniformed guys came for a “official “ hoisting drink. Speaking French helps.
The lock keeper on the first lock coming down the Petite Rhone into the canal Rhone a Sete was the only one ever to ask for papers on inland waters.
During wintering on the Canal du Midi we choose the longest bief to winter and to be able to move. A female inspector came by from time to time as one was not to stay more than 14 days on one place. That was to prevent housbarges to stay on the nicest spots. She also checked the vignette.
When the canal authority lowered the water level to do maintenance, ( Poilles ) I had made yacht legs and an X shaped strut under the bowsprit to keep the boat nice upright. Had to cut down four small trees to make the legs.
As to “ official” papers and ICC, In Belgium, to become an ICC one has to hand in the old licence and pay off course. And how did one get the old licence? Jep, by been member of a club. One also has to be Belgian or having a residence permit.
A friend who was skippering and delivering yachts in Turkey ( he worked a lot for the big chartering companies, I skippered on a private yacht ) wanted to upgrade and skippering mega yachts. The rich Turks ware buying mega´s by dozens and wanted to go outside Turkey with them, a nice market for my Italian friend. For those big yachts, the insurance wanted proof of competence. Correction, they wanted papers. So my friend who once worked as a cook and had been a liveaboard for many years in the Caribbean and Med bought papers. Some Turkish sailing school in Marmaris, no proof, no nothing, just 3000 €. Mind you, he is an excellent sailor and sure can manage a big yacht.
And no, I will not give proof, after all, maybe one day I´l decide to buy something to.

 

[vyv_cox]

Whisper it ever so softly (and don't rely on it).
In the many years I've been on the canals, I've never been asked for my ICC/CEVNI. . .
So unless you cause trouble or a calamity you might well be ok.

That's life, I suppose. In our 11 day experience of the Canal du Midi we were asked for ours twice!

 

[Mrnotming]

In 2003 we did the trip via the Marne, Saone, Rhone route in a Dufour 36 drawing 1.8 at the short chord bulb keel area.No great problems with depths in May of that year, Mud obvious in wake at times but never stopped, neither did saildrive choke the filter at all.
Seagoing CEVNI was obtained without the inland waterways part as then there was no apparatus of State in place to examine me.So I bought the relevant books from the (RYA) website and studied the subject.
In the course of my worries about this certification, I discovered that the CEVNI endorsement exam could be sat for more or less compulsorily if you became involved in any sort of behaviour which was not deemed proper or caused anxiety to those in authority.
In the event, i was never asked for the vignette, unobtainable due to strikes, or the CEVNI.
I was asked for the immatricualtion document(Registred Irish Ship Official No.), wanted by the lockkeeper in a remote area,so that he would have something to show his chiefs as a statistic.
Great thread here as always, enjoyed going down memory lane,thanks all Posters, and hope it is heeded and augmented by looking at Grehan's website, and Vic S's too!
Remembered gearbox oil in the saildrive coming out to visit me, and had to suck out some when cooled to alow for more expansion.The 12 hour running in warm canal water allows little cooling and would affect keel cooled fridges as well.
Water pump failed from ingesting sandy Seine deposits but got us all the way down, before the drip became truculent!
Option to go VNF canals south was because of age of daughter at the time, about 11 years, and preferring to only have family on board.
General mucking about on canals and lakes, as early experiental knowlege was most valuable in the locks and rivers of France.
Actually getting to Le Havre from Dublin setting out March 14th was chastening from the point of endurance, cold, strong wind, short days, fog and fatigue, and lack of radar meant passages postponed for a day or two, which might otherwise have been atttempted.
So all in all, as OP's have said, the journey if commenced in France might be easier, but the sea passages must be completed early spring to allow for good water levels in the canals.After all if canals close due to lack of water, you have a remotely located piece of real estate with poor road access!And the Marne ices over in winter!

 

[BoyBlue49]

It strikes me it would be a pity to purchase a yacht with a shoal keel just to do the canals when later the yacht will be compromised when sailing in the southern hemisphere in a blue water environment.
Surely do the canals in a more suitable craft and have a deep keeled yacht for proper sailing.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Tranona]

It strikes me it would be a pity to purchase a yacht with a shoal keel just to do the canals when later the yacht will be compromised when sailing in the southern hemisphere in a blue water environment.
Surely do the canals in a more suitable craft and have a deep keeled yacht for proper sailing.

Just my opinion of course.

That is the attraction of Southerlys, Ovnis etc - but at a price. Shallow draft keels are usually OK under about 38', but only in older designs. The latest designs need the depth to offset the lower amount of ballast and get the narrow chord to help sailing performance. Just reflects the changing market - 30 years ago shallow draft was what was in demand - now the deep water orientation of the market encourages deeper draft.

 

[Captain Greg]

It strikes me it would be a pity to purchase a yacht with a shoal keel just to do the canals when later the yacht will be compromised when sailing in the southern hemisphere in a blue water environment.
Surely do the canals in a more suitable craft and have a deep keeled yacht for proper sailing.

Thanks to the help of this post I have had a huge reality check and realised I cannot possibly do everything in life that I want. The canals will have to wait for another day and another time. And then it will just be a two or 3 week jaunt in a hire boat. Can't complain about that as by then I will have the boat I intend to "live" on for the rest of my life safe and secure somewhere there in the Med.

And to put everybody's minds at ease. I will not be purchasing said Bene 45 (quite possibly the 41) for another 18 to 24 months and in that time, besides saving madly, I will be endeavouring to get whatever certificates I need from here to kingdom come. And I do do some crewing out of Sandringham and Sorrento here in Melbourne.

And I already have the contact details of a few delivery skippers and able crew who are willing to help get me across the Atlantic and beyond. Although once thru the Panama; after a couple of years in the Med followed by a season in the Caribbean I really hope I am capable and qualified to skipper myself and fiancée across the Pacific. Who knows!

I take my hat off to all of you. You have been unbelievably helpful and understanding. And I particularly enjoyed the thread Grehan that you provided of the couple who bought the Dutch Barge. What a life!!!

 

[jordanbasset]

Another thought, as you want to do the med have you thought about buyng a second hand boat there. Some real bargains at the moment there. Lovely to save tens of thousands of pounds, the rent a boat to do the canals.
Example here
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...rency=GBP&access=Public&listing_id=59470&url=
Many more available, some cheaper especially as you may not need to pay tax
Just a thought

 

[Grehan]

Buying somewhere relatively benign like Greece (I know that's not always the case, but . . ) could be a sound idea. And there are RYA sailing schools etc. there too, for some tuition alongside 'learning as you go'. Would save a whole bunch of dosh on delivery skippering. Learn the ropes and get the sea-legs whilst sailing west to Gib, then ready for a Pond hop.

 

[Captain Greg]

Yes I have considered second hand boats long and hard. But there are no second hand Bene 45's yet on the market and I like the idea of being able to configure the boat to my liking from the outset.

But, please let's not get into the pros and cons of new vs old here. It's a personal choice and for me the Bene 41 and or the 45, besides the headroom (I'm very tall) tick every box. I'll be doing a lot more living than sailing.

Again, thanks for helping steer me in the right direction re cruising the Med or doing the canals. I look forward to meeting some of you one day.

 

[westernman]

If you are looking for a rental berth in the South of France, then be aware that waiting lists are very very long and that very few berths come up for renewal.

So it might make much more sense to buy a boat already in the marina of your choice. In most cases you can get the berth rental transfered to you. In most places this is the only way to get a rental berth.

In some of the more up market areas on the Riviera, you can buy a leasehold berth. But the effective yearly rental (purchase price / divided by number of years of lease left) is usually several times that of a rental.