Lazyjacks re-think

Greenheart

Greenheart

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This may not work, or even be worth trying...just a thought. The long down-parts on my lazyjacks are a pain, leading to the shroud bases. These tails almost double the length of line required, they tangle easily and aren't close to hand when I need to adjust them.

I'm thinking that if the line on each side began at the spreaders and led down through the usual triangles to the boom, the aftermost part of which was adjustable with a boom-mounted clam-cleat, then the tension could still be altered but the amount of rope needed could be much reduced.

Also, is there an overpowering reason why lazyjacks are attached close to the mast, rather than out on the spreaders? If the lines could be spread (permanently, or temporarily with an adjuster), there'd be much less snagging of battens.
 
Mine start on the boom.
Go up to a block on the spreaders
Then back down to a cleat at the goosneck.

They are over length so they can be released and the middle lead all the way back to goosneck so there is nothing to catch the battens when hauling the main.
 
On my boat they are rigged as you suggest. There is a fixed length of rope attached to the middle of the upper spreader with the top block of the cascade on the other end. The bottom rope of the cascade passes through all the various blocks and ends on a cleat on the boom near the gooseneck. There is enough spare rope there to all the whole system to be pulled in against the mast if required. In practice I very rarely adjust them. I raise the boom a little to give enough slack to ease fitting of the sail cover.
 
System is fine in principle, subject to spreader specs and lazyjack loads. I’ve seen a broken mast following a bust spreader as a consequence of such a system, but on the other hand it works fine on many boats. Other option is to rig from mast and open slot with lightweight bungy.

Prob best to ask the spreader manufacturer or rigger before installation
 
dom said:
System is fine in principle, subject to spreader specs and lazyjack loads. I’ve seen a broken mast following a bust spreader as a consequence of such a system, but on the other hand it works fine on many boats. Other option is to rig from mast and open slot with lightweight bungy.

Prob best to ask the spreader manufacturer or rigger before installation
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Good point. As I understand it the spreaders should be strong enough to support the weight of a rigger standing on them. But probably a good idea to ensure that the lazy jack ropes are not too strong. No comments on ours in the rig inspection just after we bought the boat. You've now got me thinking about adding a hanger from the mast to support the middle of the spreaders where the lazy jacks are attached.
 
dancrane said:
Also, is there an overpowering reason why lazyjacks are attached close to the mast, rather than out on the spreaders? If the lines could be spread (permanently, or temporarily with an adjuster), there'd be much less snagging of battens.
Click to expand...

They need to be close to the mast to pivot with the sail/boom when sailing (unless you remove them). If they, for example, went to the end of the spreaders it would pull tight as you have the boom on the opposite side.
 
DJE said:
Good point. As I understand it the spreaders should be strong enough to support the weight of a rigger standing on them. But probably a good idea to ensure that the lazy jack ropes are not too strong. No comments on ours in the rig inspection just after we bought the boat. You've now got me thinking about adding a hanger from the mast to support the middle of the spreaders where the lazy jacks are attached.
Click to expand...

I guess, one concern with retro-fitting is drilling and finishing the holes to avoid radial cracks compromising the spreader. Then there is the question - if no vang strut - of letting the boom effectively put all its weight on the lazy jacks. A problem enhanced for boats with heavy long boom sections and heavy offshore sails. That said, this is quite a common setup.

Personally, instead of fitting hangars, if worried I would just reroute the lazy jacks to the mast a little above the spreader and then use some light bungy to open the slot. FWIW I have mast fitted jacks and nothing to open the slot; fully battened main but the helm has to really think to raise main without a snag ;)
 
My lazyjacks pass a block near the mast and I have thought of widening the gap by moving them out along the spreaders. Although there are actually already drilled holes in my Selden spreaders which would serve, I have been inhibited from using them because of the matter of loads mentioned.

I do use bungee cords with an eye to hold the lazyjacks apart at the lower cross-trees. The system works pretty well, and also stopps the fall from the lazyjacks from beating against the mast when sailing. Although I contrived the system myself, I am surprised that more people don't do the same.

I stow the bight of the lazyjacks at the mast when not sailing as it allows me to put the sail cover on, having rejected the idea of a stack-pack. I have never found the extra line to be a problem and just stow it on the cleats.
 
Tomahawk said:
Mine start on the boom.
Go up to a block on the spreaders
Then back down to a cleat at the goosneck.

They are over length so they can be released and the middle lead all the way back to goosneck so there is nothing to catch the battens when hauling the main.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the arrangement I have.

Improvements I have planned are:

a) thicker lines that don't stretch as much as those I have now

b) coloured lines instead of white
 
On a 38ft boat have lazyjacks which are permanently fixed to the spreaders, about 15cm out from the mast. With fully battened sail and rod kicker ours are adjusted at the start of the season and never fiddled with thereafter when sailing. Lovely and simple, and no rope down the mast to slap and make noise at anchor.

As hermit says can’t take too far out as would tighten excessively when boom goes out. And if concerned about spreader strength, great suggestion to fix above spreader and use bungy from spreaders to pull out horizontally.

Going back to the OP, if this is on his Osprey dingy attaching anything with downward pull on a dinghy spreader is likely to break the spreader root and threaten the rig. Particularly as a dinghy shroud generally passes through the spreader tip, without being fixed rigidly to it. For dan’s unique requirements attaching to the trapeze points and using bungy to hold out horizontally could work.
 
dancrane said:
Also, is there an overpowering reason why lazyjacks are attached close to the mast, rather than out on the spreaders? If the lines could be spread (permanently, or temporarily with an adjuster), there'd be much less snagging of battens.
Click to expand...

Moving the upper fixing position of the lazy jacks outwards will not do anything for snagging the battens. To stop that you need to adjust the setup so that they have a more shallow angle such that the leech clears the lazy jacks sooner when hoisting the sail.
You do not need to catch the sail when it is aloft, only when it is getting lower down near the boom in the dropped position.

Of course you could use another system (http://myboatsgear.com/2016/12/25/dutchman-system/) which consists of using strong nylon fishing line threaded through small cringles in the sail so that as the sail drops it is automatically folded up rather like Venetian blinds. Hence you have one set down the middle of the sail rather than two. If you wanted to try it you could sew very tiny rings on the sail so it drops one side of the lines & see how it goes before you start punching holes in the sail
 
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Many excellent points here, thank you all for responding. I infer that the circumstances which enable a set of lazyjacks to work flawlessly on one yacht, couldn't be assumed to work so easily on the yacht next door.

DJE said:
On my boat they are rigged as you suggest...a fixed length of rope attached to the middle of the upper spreader...the bottom rope of the cascade passes through all the various blocks and ends on a cleat on the boom near the gooseneck. There is enough spare rope there for the whole system to be pulled in against the mast if required. In practice I very rarely adjust them.
Click to expand...

I like the sound of this very much; the only concern, which seems in this thread to be both affirmed and made light of, being the possible loading for which the spreaders were not designed.

I wasn't only thinking about my dinghy...because the Osprey doesn't have a topping lift, so all the burden of the boom and sail's weight, is carried by the lazyjacks. Considering the very lightweight spreaders, clearly the mid-spreader attachment wouldn't be wise for the dinghy's set-up.

But if a topping lift takes the boom's weight, is the weight (and perhaps more significantly, windage) of furled sail and stackpack, so great as to bend the sturdier spreaders of the average yacht? I admit I've no idea whether it is normal to loosen the topping lift when sailing - I assumed it always bears the boom's weight, rather than only replicating the effect of a boom crutch at rest.

dom said:
Other option is to rig from mast and open slot with lightweight bungy.
Click to expand...

This sounds ingenious, but every time I try to draw how it might work, it looks like a tangle-in-waiting. Has anyone got a photo?
Drawing the LJs forward in order not to obstruct the battens also sounds good, if it isn't complicated.

But the solution I thought must be the most obvious one (and I need telling if there's a reason it doesn't work) is simply to prevent the batten-ends protruding from their pockets. It sounds like a really simple subtle reworking of the batten and the pocket for a purpose the sailmaker hadn't forseen, and would stop the snagging, even if the boat wasn't head to wind during hoisting...wouldn't it?

I love the Venetian blind idea, Daydream. ;)

I also wonder if elastic mightn't be incorporated into the system - shockcord allowing sufficient tension to keep the lowered sail in the stackpack, whilst allowing the lines to be stretched forward or sideways by manual force if needed.
 
Hermit said:
They need to be close to the mast to pivot with the sail/boom when sailing (unless you remove them). If they, for example, went to the end of the spreaders it would pull tight as you have the boom on the opposite side.
Click to expand...

Thinking about this some more I'm not sure that is correct. As you swing the boom out the lazy jacks get shorter on one side but longer on the other. The cascade system (on mine anyway) has the two sides linked by lines that pass under the boom. So the spare rope from the shorter side relieves any tendency for the longer side to get tight. They were installed this way when the boat was built so I think it best to leave well alone. The more conventional set up with ropes dead-ended on the stack pack seems to lack this balancing mechanism so might best be fixed on the mast and not the spreaders.
 
dancrane said:
But the solution I thought must be the most obvious one (and I need telling if there's a reason it doesn't work) is simply to prevent the batten-ends protruding from their pockets. It sounds like a really simple subtle reworking of the batten and the pocket for a purpose the sailmaker hadn't forseen, and would stop the snagging, even if the boat wasn't head to wind during hoisting...wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

Mine don't protrude but they can still snag as the batten tip creates a hard point in the otherwise slack leach while hoisting.

And if they snag you can easily loose the leach tell-tale ribbons - I have one to replace this winter.
 
Thanks for that Dom, that whole brochure is helpful reading. I had been thinking that the side-pullers would be (or need to be) activated by the person doing the hoisting, rather than working all the time, and not being adjustable.

48683616483_78fa5ec603.jpg


And I was delighted to see that the Harken system doesn't have a separate down-part for adjustment...don't know why mine does.

48683672403_b5814672d4.jpg


DJE, I agree the batten-ends are a stiff point in the leech, but stopping them protruding must reduce their snaggability, somewhat?

I'm going to go to work on simplifying mine. :encouragement:
 
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