Lagoon 52 eacape hatch failure

[geem]

I guy we know was sailing from Antigua to Guadeloupe. One of the escape hatches popped out of the hull on passage. These hatches are about 9" above the waterline. They are toughened glass and glued in place. The idea being, that if the cat is inverted, you have a little hammer to break the glass.
This is another failure of bonded in windows but unlike those on deck, this has a really possibility of sinking your vessel. The boat is 10 years old. Obviously they are not suffering from direct UV damage. Quite possibly heat degradation. Anybody who has bonded in windows or escape hatches, on a similar aged boat, would be well advised to have them all re-bedded prior to any offshore sailing. Can you imagine if you were on an ocean crossing and the escape hatches fell out!
The owner explained that they have had to re-bed the saloon windows already as they were all leaking.
I have heard so many times that bonded in windows are as strong as the boat, blah, blah blah. Well they are not. Bonded in windows are as strong as the failed adhesive.

 

[SvenH]

Bonded windows are ridiculous, especially in the hull.

 

[geem]

Bonded windows are ridiculous, especially in the hull.

Fine for the first few years but then you have no idea when they might fail catastrophically. I am not aware that any of these manufacturers that bond their windows in have a recommendation for peroidic rebedding. Are you supposed to just wait until they fail? Seem crazy to me.
With bolted in windows and portlights, the worst that can happen is a leak. This is far better than total loss of the window.
The guy with the lagoon 52 made it back to Antigua with a huge hole in the boat. He now has 1/2" plexiglass in there as he can't get the toughened glass so easily.

 

[Neeves]

Fine for the first few years but then you have no idea when they might fail catastrophically. I am not aware that any of these manufacturers that bond their windows in have a recommendation for peroidic rebedding. Are you supposed to just wait until they fail? Seem crazy to me.
With bolted in windows and portlights, the worst that can happen is a leak. This is far better than total loss of the window.
The guy with the lagoon 52 made it back to Antigua with a huge hole in the boat. He now has 1/2" plexiglass in there as he can't get the toughened glass so easily.

The problem now is that plexiglass is difficult to break, so the modus operandi of the existing escape, belt window with hammer, will not work - or it would if you had a very big hammer and room to swing it.

I don't know the design, size, of the Lagoon window but I'd be inclined to replace with a framed opening window - if there was one of a suitable size. We had big Moonlight hatches, topsides, for ventilation (and a large enough opening to climb through) which would be suitable in they would fit in the aperture

Our windows lasted 'about' 25 years - it was the acrylic that failed, not the adhesive. The overlap round each window was about 100mm of adhesive 'exposed' to the sun in Sydney. The old windows were almost impossible to cut out, the adhesive was fantastic - 'some' modern adhesives are more than adequate. I believe our windows were installed using a 3M construction adhesive (the same adhesive used on the Petronas Towers in KL). Our yacht builder, Lightwave, have changed to speciality adhesive specific for windows from a local adhesive manufacturer, Fix Tech. We used the Fix Tech adhesive to replace - they spent a lot of time detailing exactly how we should effect the replacement. The thickness of the adhesive has to be 'right' to allow for thermal expansion, too thin and the adhesive will fail.


On the specific incident - In the past yachts had storm boards for windows - the idea seems to have been completely forgotten - how many people carry pieces of wood to cover a failed window or carry storm boards? This is a major issue on modern multis where windows can be massive. Whilst the failure is inexcusable so is crossing an ocean without any thought of points of failure and how to address the issue. A couple of squares of marine ply of an appropriate size, predrilled, with appropriate screws and a tube of adhesive seem appropriate (cabin sole boards?). We had some excess glass and epoxy after building our transom extensions and 'godpod' - we made up squares of epoxied glass fibre which we carried in the case of a significant failure. We also made glassed foam washboards to restrain the grandchildren when they were younger to close off the walk through transoms. All ready for major incidents. I'd have chopped up the 5/8th" ply cabin doors as well if demanded.

People need to read the Cat 1, or 0, requirements and apply them - the safety requirements are not only for a race but apply equally to sailing anywhere off shore where you are responsible for anything that happens, or may happen. When we had 'Josepheline' built Cat 0 and Cat 1 were part of our specifications - its all neatly listed, it requires little modification. The Lagoon failure is a disgrace - but so is being ill prepared - I'm sympathetic but have reservations, storm boards seem obvious to me - I wonder what else was overlooked.

All modern yachts, and older ones, are not built (even if they should be) to cater for hurricanes and crossing oceans - no-one thinks twice about installing a Desalination unit when they cross an ocean, they carry scuba gear for when they arrive at their destination - so why do they not have storm boards?

Jonathan

 

[geem]

The problem now is that plexiglass is difficult to break, so the modus operandi of the existing escape, belt window with hammer, will not work - or it would if you had a very big hammer and room to swing it.

I don't know the design, size, of the Lagoon window but I'd be inclined to replace with a framed opening window - if there was one of a suitable size. We had big Moonlight hatches, topsides, for ventilation (and a large enough opening to climb through) which would be suitable in they would fit in the aperture

Our windows lasted 'about' 25 years - it was the acrylic that failed, not the adhesive. The overlap round each window was about 100mm of adhesive 'exposed' to the sun in Sydney. The old windows were almost impossible to cut out, the adhesive was fantastic - 'some' modern adhesives are more than adequate. I believe our windows were installed using a 3M construction adhesive (the same adhesive used on the Petronas Towers in KL). Our yacht builder, Lightwave, have changed to speciality adhesive specific for windows from a local adhesive manufacturer, Fix Tech. We used the Fix Tech adhesive to replace - they spent a lot of time detailing exactly how we should effect the replacement. The thickness of the adhesive has to be 'right' to allow for thermal expansion, too thin and the adhesive will fail.


On the specific incident - In the past yachts had storm boards for windows - the idea seems to have been completely forgotten - how many people carry pieces of wood to cover a failed window or carry storm boards? This is a major issue on modern multis where windows can be massive. Whilst the failure is inexcusable so is crossing an ocean without any thought of points of failure and how to address the issue. A couple of squares of marine ply of an appropriate size, predrilled, with appropriate screws and a tube of adhesive seem appropriate (cabin sole boards?). We had some excess glass and epoxy after building our transom extensions and 'godpod' - we made up squares of epoxied glass fibre which we carried in the case of a significant failure. We also made glassed foam washboards to restrain the grandchildren when they were younger to close off the walk through transoms. All ready for major incidents. I'd have chopped up the 5/8th" ply cabin doors as well if demanded.

People need to read the Cat 1, or 0, requirements and apply them - the safety requirements are not only for a race but apply equally to sailing anywhere off shore where you are responsible for anything that happens, or may happen. When we had 'Josepheline' built Cat 0 and Cat 1 were part of our specifications - its all neatly listed, it requires little modification. The Lagoon failure is a disgrace - but so is being ill prepared - I'm sympathetic but have reservations, storm boards seem obvious to me - I wonder what else was overlooked.

All modern yachts, and older ones, are not built (even if they should be) to cater for hurricanes and crossing oceans - no-one thinks twice about installing a Desalination unit when they cross an ocean, they carry scuba gear for when they arrive at their destination - so why do they not have storm boards?

Jonathan

We cross oceans and we carry a couple of 3/4" storm boards for our small portlights. We have 5 portlights on each side of the hull. They are cast aluminium frames with bolted construction and 1/2" perspex. In addition, our windows are small and through bolted 10mm perspex. No stormboards needed for those.
We will be putting everything to the test again in a few weeks when we do another West to East crossing of the Atlantic. Two up. Me and the Mrs and a small dog ( doing her 4th crossing)

 

[Neeves]

We cross oceans and we carry a couple of 3/4" storm boards for our small portlights. We have 5 portlights on each side of the hull. They are cast aluminium frames with bolted construction and 1/2" perspex. In addition, our windows are small and through bolted 10mm perspex. No stormboards needed for those.
We will be putting everything to the test again in a few weeks when we do another West to East crossing of the Atlantic. Two up. Me and the Mrs and a small dog ( doing her 4th crossing)

You carry storm boards which you appear to consider unnecessary - but still carry them. I can only say I think you are wise.

Now tell me why you are overly cautious and catamaran owners with factorially larger windows think it, storm boards, are unnecessary even though the large windows are 'only' held in with a, possibly, questionable adhesive.

Makes no sense at all to me

Jonathan

 

[geem]

You carry storm boards which you appear to consider unnecessary - but still carry them. I can only say I think you are wise.

Now tell me why you are overly cautious and catamaran owners with factorially larger windows think it, storm boards, are unnecessary even though the large windows are 'only' held in with a, possibly, questionable adhesive.

Makes no sense at all to me

Jonathan

My storm boards for the portlights are there should we hit something floating whilst going hard to weather. We have to be leaning over a long way to get the portlights near the water, but you never know what you might hit. A large log may be enough to stove one of my small portlights.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Did his cat escape the recall?

Survival hatch: Goiot explains the product recall aboard catamarans

Adhesion defects on 2 models of escape hatches​

" The recall campaign concerns two models of escape hatches from our range: the T44 fixed hatches with an aluminum frame and tempered glass and the Cristal 4942 opening hatches with a PMMA glass and an aluminum frame. Difficulties of adhesion that could lead to the loss of the glass have been noted. There is no risk with other fixed SurvivAL or Cristal round and sheet metal models. Affected products are those produced between August 2014 and December 2018 for the T44 and August 2014 and July 2018 for the Cristal "says Jacques Leblais, CEO of Goiot Systems.

General Info Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

 

[geem]

Did his cat escape the recall?

Survival hatch: Goiot explains the product recall aboard catamarans



General Info Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

View attachment 173314View attachment 173315

Maybe. Its a 10 year old boat. His has the fixed glass, not opening.
'Difficulties of adhesion' interesting wording. Lagoon front windows are notorious for failing. They are are just glued in. We know several Lagoon owners and they all have problems. It's not an age thing or batch issue. It's a design issue. The issue spans different size Lagoons.
A friend recent.y sold his 2000 year model Lagoon 38. He purchased a 2019 Lagoon 40. He has owned it for a few months but says its far worse quality than his 38. It has gelcost cracks everywhere. Thr steering wheel seat is ridiculous. Sat down you can't see a thing forward. Nothing. It's like taking the seat out of your car, sitting on the floor and and being expected to drive. It's the standard seat as supplied by Lagoon.
The worst thing is the deck design. They use standard Lewmar low profile hatches. They recessed the hatches so the top of the hatches are level with the deck. To do this, there is a trough all around the hatch. When it rains, the trough fills up with water and doesn't drain. The hatches all leak as the seals sit in standing water.
My friend said the old 38 was solid. The new 40 creaks like crazy. He is not a happy bunny

 

[Neeves]

Maybe. Its a 10 year old boat. His has the fixed glass, not opening.
'Difficulties of adhesion' interesting wording. Lagoon front windows are notorious for failing. They are are just glued in. We know several Lagoon owners and they all have problems. It's not an age thing or batch issue. It's a design issue. The issue spans different size Lagoons.
A friend recent.y sold his 2000 year model Lagoon 38. He purchased a 2019 Lagoon 40. He has owned it for a few months but says its far worse quality than his 38. It has gelcost cracks everywhere. Thr steering wheel seat is ridiculous. Sat down you can't see a thing forward. Nothing. It's like taking the seat out of your car, sitting on the floor and and being expected to drive. It's the standard seat as supplied by Lagoon.
The worst thing is the deck design. They use standard Lewmar low profile hatches. They recessed the hatches so the top of the hatches are level with the deck. To do this, there is a trough all around the hatch. When it rains, the trough fills up with water and doesn't drain. The hatches all leak as the seals sit in standing water.
My friend said the old 38 was solid. The new 40 creaks like crazy. He is not a happy bunny

They have designed recessed hatches to make the decks trip free and sunbathe/charter friendly - they obviously do not know of skin cancer. Its would be possible to mould a drain channel from each of the hatch recesses and it would not negate the trip free deck. Everything I read on Lagoons suggests that the yachts are not designed for crossing oceans nor designed , in fact, for private/individual ownership where the owners might have more adventurous ideas.

I'm surprised the issues have not filtered through and retired (from charter fleets) vessels become unsaleable.

People do not appear to do their homework - none of the issues are new. They just appear on forms like this as the number of older Lagoons are used I a 'non charter' environment.

Jonathan