Labour charge for replacing two seacocks.

  • Thread starter Thread starter XDC
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These days I grind out the skin fitting and replace the lot. Recommended to me initially by a professional, who I would've trusted to do the job but he had too much of a backlog to take it on.

The same person claimed to have replaced two in an hour on a Mobo that was lifted, held in slings, then relaunched after he'd finished. I'd recommend him but the trouble is he always has a backlog of weeks of work.

Doing it myself, I reckon 30 mins per fitting to remove old skin fitting etc. per seacock. Perhaps another 30 min to prepare and fit the skin fitting (e.g. cleaning, masking for sealant etc). Including help from someone to hold the step wrench (real or improvised). Then maybe another 30 or 40 mins in the morning to tighten up the skin fitting completely and attach sea cock, hose connector, hose etc. Also need helper with step wrench for part of that.

Attaching hose is sometimes easy and sometimes the most awkward part, so you do need to allow time for skinning knuckles, associated cursing, cleaning hands and applying elastoplast.

Disassembling and re-assembling half the boat to reach the skin fitting can be most of the work, but that doesn't seem to apply here.
 
Couple of things here to consider.
Did you keep the old fittings?? If so, post a pic of those so we can see the extent of the problem. Personally I don't think spraying them with a Water Dispersal fluid would cause a problem with expansion of the discs within the seacocks (they may in fact be PTFE and not Delrin) What other method of lubrication is provided on the old seacocks.
Did they replace exactly like for like or are the new seacocks different from the old?
The Labour bill was £520 but was lumped in with everything onto one invoice, storage, launching, the work the engineer was doing plus the labour and parts cost.
Could it possibly be that the labour charge was also including the other works carried out at the time?
Shame I didn't know about this???
 
ghostlymoron said:
I'm afraid you haven't got a leg to stand on if you didn't get a firm price before you instructed them to do the work. All you can do is tell them you won't employ them again unless they reduce their bill.
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A common perception and it's certainly best to avoid situations like this. But when you're up against it - and I know this is PBO - it is often possible to raise the game with the provider of the service in dispute to a level that most would consider excessive, and rightly so.

And in the middle of this, there's an agreement to be reached, a deal to be done. That's the aim here and it's probably achievable without too many feathers flying.
 
No reply from the yard yet.

Re the WD40 useage both the M.D. and engineer said the same thing but tbh that’s not what concerns me. It’s the unknown hours and daily rate that is the issue.

Re not getting a quote, what was I supposed to do?

I’ve rarely seen a (in principle!) more straightforward job. Easy access, an engineer actually inside the boat presumably with the required tools in his van and a history of quotes that had been understandable, acceptable and accurate.

He had heard me banging and crashing trying to move the handles back and forth (lesson there for Hadenough) and had come and taken a look. and correctly advised that I would not get them off. Half an hour and two bent handles later I had to agree with him.

He said he could get the parts ordered that afternoon and fit them the next day.

I didn’t see the old parts. Re like for like they look like seacocks. What can I say? I imagine the majority part of the bill was removal so even if they were slightly different that wouldn’t reflect in the labour cost which is my concern.

Re the lumping of the bill I expected an invoice for the storage and launch, one for the original job and one for the seacocks. I would happily pay the first two and hold back on the last one until I had the information I require.

You all seem eminently Practical which is why I posted here. :D
 
The common reason for stuck ball valves is a build up of deposits on the edge of the ball. This can be avoided by regularly exercising them

I also do not buy the explanation that WD 40 caused the liner to swell. It does not.

I agree the labour is way over the top, but you don't say whether they dismantled the valves from the fittings and just replaced them, or whether they used the simple method of grinding out the skin fitting flange and replaced the whole assembly. If the former that, despite the easy access is often more time consuming and usually needs two people for part of the operation. Grinding is a one man job and takes about 10 minutes a seacock. Reassembly needs two because you have to hold the fitting in place from the outside to stop it turning while you attach the bits inside.

If it were me I would question the whole job from diagnosis to completion and ask to see the parts removed.

Whatever they did I hope the new valves are DZR.
 
I do have a question ,
the pipe they replace , was it just a small bit , both end accessible and the pipe ?
Only asking because some pipe can take some time to remove and replace , one of our head took almost a day to replace , they disappeared behind shower ,fridge, cooker every so offen there was a plastic tie which you couldn't get to we had to cut three inspection hole to get to all of them , 6 mts of snake , if this was the case on your boat , that could easily increase your bill .
 
At £520 for labour and a total bill of nearly a thousand, what exactly are those new seacocks and fittings made of? Gold?
 
My previous comment was a statement of the bald facts - if you have no written contract, you can have no breach. How you proceed going forward depends on what relationship you have with the contractor and from subsequent comments it appears that you have an ongoing amicable one and one that you both wish to continue. A person to person approach often achieves the most not resorting to threats. As there is nothing in writing (except the bill) keep it verbal and simply and calmly outline your misgivings, ask jokingly if the decimal is in the wrong place and ask why so high, could they look at it again. Good luck.
 
ghostlymoron said:
My previous comment was a statement of the bald facts - if you have no written contract, you can have no breach. How you proceed going forward depends on what relationship you have with the contractor and from subsequent comments it appears that you have an ongoing amicable one and one that you both wish to continue. A person to person approach often achieves the most not resorting to threats.
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Person to person is the first port of call for pretty much any dispute one can think of. But as this is a public forum, it is simply untrue to claim that the absence of formal contract leaves the OP with little more than the option of a friendly chat, the outcome of which is essentially reliant upon the benevolence of the contractor.

Undertaking work without a contract exposes both the provider and the customer to largely symmetrical risks. This is why non-contracted/unquoted work is normally confined to small works, or to those with a good relationships.

Given that a disagreement has occurred this is now a problem for both parties. Once the yard has had a chance to put its side of the story, I'm sure a satisfactory settlement can be reached with a handshake and a couple of hundred quid knocked off the bill if warranted.
 
Well I did one recently, same size, similar access, on my own, on the scrubbing grid, between tides. Oh, and I also scrubbed off and antifouled the boat at the same time. I'm not a marine engineer, I'm in software sales, but on the basis of this thread considering a career change!
 
Well, good news.

The labour was overcharged by £223.20 so is now a far more reasonable £297.60 (included the routing of the pipe which despite all being contained in the undersink cabinet would have been an impolite word) :cool:

Thanks to all of you for your input.

Had I had a problem I would have used all the comments as backup so thanks again.
 
XDC said:
Well, good news.

The labour was overcharged by £223.20 so is now a far more reasonable £297.60 (included the routing of the pipe which despite all being contained in the undersink cabinet would have been an impolite word) :cool:

Thanks to all of you for your input.

Had I had a problem I would have used all the comments as backup so thanks again.
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A happy end to another pbo saga
 
Good job you did query it!! How many would have not and the company £223.20 better off for what may have been an "accounting or clerical error"
What was the reason for the overcharge, do tell!
 
I hate to say this, but next time this happens, fit Blakes... (and do it yourself - years ago I got an even worse bill from a yard with whom I was spending five figures for changing two ball valves for Blakes.)

Another vote for the Dremel off the flange approach - first recommended to me here..

May I recommend the chapter on yard bills in "Sod's Law of the Sea"?
 
mickywillis said:
Good job you did query it!! How many would have not and the company £223.20 better off for what may have been an "accounting or clerical error"
What was the reason for the overcharge, do tell!
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Not explained, just a sincere apology from the M.D.

I 100% believe it was a genuine mistake, we are still friends :encouragement: and I will take my boat back there again for any remedial action.

Still grateful for the support here, it would have helped me immensely in the event of an argument but not needed.
 
Minn said:
I hate to say this, but next time this happens, fit Blakes... (and do it yourself - years ago I got an even worse bill from a yard with whom I was spending five figures for changing two ball valves for Blakes.)

Another vote for the Dremel off the flange approach - first recommended to me here..

May I recommend the chapter on yard bills in "Sod's Law of the Sea"?
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There is no advantage to fitting Blakes in this application, particularly as there is not room to fit them and it requires a completely new hole. This is not knocking Blakes but it is horses for courses and DZR ball valves are well suited to this application.
 
Incidentally I have just input all the data I have into my Cray supercomputer and established that the hourly rate is £62 plus vat which means the job took 4 hours.
 
XDC said:
Incidentally I have just input all the data I have into my Cray supercomputer and established that the hourly rate is £62 plus vat which means the job took 4 hours.
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Which means the mistake was for 3 hour labour, plus VAT. Glad to hear they recognised the mistake and corrected it and that you are happy they didn't try to rip you off.
 
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