Know who you are Chartering with!!!

[shan]

As a warning to others. Recently, we arranged a charter in Greece, through Helm. Helm is a broker and in turn used Sail Aegean in Volos as the Boat Charter company. As it turns out, the boat we chartered: Kaze Maru is not actually owned by Sail Aegean, so when the floods struck in Greece and our flights were cancelled, we tried to get Helm to negotiate for the Charter to be rescheduled. Sail Aegean then claimed that the owner of Kaze Maru was being inflexible and not willing to budge. Their view is that the charter boat was ready for the charter, so they had fulfilled their part of the agreement, which is technically true. So make sure you know what to expect when things go awry - unfortunately, I ended up with £6k down the drain.... although f course, Helm & Sail Aegean are quite keen to offer me a 30% discount if I charter with them next year.... I must have the word MUG tattooed across my forehead.

As an aside, we had friends who actually got stuck on Chart and were only able to make their way out of the area, more than a week after the end of their holiday. On the morning of the last day they were there (9th of September), a yacht had anchored off the very muddy debris strewn water and made their way ashore on their tender to try and buy some provisions. They left empty handed. WhatsApp messages from their time in Chorto:







and this is the account from @vas who is in Volos and posted on the 18th of September:

sorry, haven't posted here since the disaster.
things back in Volos are not getting better much faster, the whole Pagasitikos bay is a mess, when I left on the boat 8days ago I had to go at 4kn and slalom around debris that ranged from small branches and leaves/bushes to big logs, various plastic containers and anything that floats basically. Conditions back there were bad enough to persuade me to leave with the boat for a week, going back the day after.
@shan can you please PM me your details and booking ref or whatever and I can nicely ask some ppl that have worked as skippers for them and see what they may do/have done in other cases? Unfortunately don't know anyone in management, just some guys doing skippering work and the guys doing the setting up, provisions, etc.
Surely NOT a small operation, must have around 30+ sailboats from 30ft up to 60 based in Volos and for sure that week nothing moved.
a poor guy that managed to start his charter on the 9th, came across a body floating near Trikeri that was some vacation start!

fwiw, weather and conditions are absolutely fine outside the bay, so a week in Skiathos, Skopelos and Alonissos was very welcomed after a week at home with no el and water (ended up half the days in the boat in port to have showers and sleep with simple things as 230V).
for the record, yesterday they issued a warning against fishing in the whole bay as waters are not safe (not sure if swimming is also prohibited)

cheers
V.

 

[shan]

What I have concluded from this sorry tale, is understand who you are contracting with. It might be more expensive to contract with a company that actually owns the boats but perhaps, ultimately more secure!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It seems your contract was with Helm under UK law they may well have had a contract with Sail Aegean who will have a contract with the vessel owner, that's their problem, the answer is after legal advice to sue through the small claims court on the basis of frustration. Of course both Helm and Sail Aegean are doing their best to dissuade you from doing this as both will probably lose out.
It takes very little work and a small amount to get the advice necessary to proceed, you must be nothing like your online persona not to.

 

[shan]

It seems your contract was with Helm under UK law they may well have had a contract with Sail Aegean who will have a contract with the vessel owner, that's their problem, the answer is after legal advice to sue through the small claims court on the basis of frustration. Of course both Helm and Sail Aegean are doing their best to dissuade you from doing this as both will probably lose out.
It takes very little work and a small amount to get the advice necessary to proceed, you must be nothing like your online persona not to.

I have read the terms and conditions that Helm sent through as part of the charter, which I signed. The only recourse I have, is if the charter boat is not available/not useable and a suitable alternative or a refund has not been forthcoming, or if the area I am chartering in has a Covid19 lockdown, in which case I can accept a refund or a charter at a later date.

Ultimately, the boat was available. The lesson for me, is do things directly, not through brokers or companies that don't own the boat or in my case both!

 

[B27]

Surely this is the kind of thing people take out insurance to cover?

It's an act of God/Nature/MMGW, people need to some extent to either carry their own risks or insure against them?
It's not the other party's fault, they have not been negligent.

I suspect in many cases, going to law will be a waste of time, because the body you have a contract with has no assets? They are just pimping out yachts actually owned by private individuals who are not involved.

 

[dunedin]

I have read the terms and conditions that Helm sent through as part of the charter, which I signed. The only recourse I have, is if the charter boat is not available/not useable and a suitable alternative or a refund has not been forthcoming, or if the area I am chartering in has a Covid19 lockdown, in which case I can accept a refund or a charter at a later date.

Ultimately, the boat was available. The lesson for me, is do things directly, not through brokers or companies that don't own the boat or in my case both!

Sorry to hear of your cancelled holiday. Will your holiday travel insurance not cover this?

 

[shan]

Sorry to hear of your cancelled holiday. Will your holiday travel insurance not cover this?

Thank you.

The only insurance I have would be under my Credit card but as the charter boat was available, and the flights were not part of the whole package, it's irrelevant (charter and flights booked separately). Insurance would argue that the contract was fulfilled. Essentially, I was relying on the Charter company to behave reasonably. Never make an assumption.

Hopefully, people will learn from my experience.

 

[dunedin]

Thank you.

The only insurance I have would be under my Credit card but as the charter boat was available, and the flights were not part of the whole package, it's irrelevant (charter and flights booked separately). Insurance would argue that the contract was fulfilled. Essentially, I was relying on the Charter company to behave reasonably. Never make an assumption.

Hopefully, people will learn from my experience.

Most travel,insurance these days don’t require the flights and the holiday accommodation to be booked together. And if can’t get there would refund the “accommodation”. But that would need to have taken out travel insurance, and not just relying on basic credit card cover.

 

[shan]

Most travel,insurance these days don’t require the flights and the holiday accommodation to be booked together. And if can’t get there would refund the “accommodation”. But that would need to have taken out travel insurance, and not just relying on basic credit card cover.

I think they would have argued that I could have gotten there sometime mid charter in what can only be described as, less than ideal conditions. If I'd broken my back to do it, I probably could have gotten there mid charter but sometimes what one can do and what one should do, are not the same thing - I doubt they would take that into consideration.

 

[dunedin]

I think they would have argued that I could have gotten there sometime mid charter in what can only be described as, less than ideal conditions. If I'd broken my back to do it, I probably could have gotten there mid charter but sometimes what one can do and what one should do, are not the same thing - I doubt they would take that into consideration.

If you have travel insurance it is worth a try making the claim. Yes they could try to reject it, but my experience has been that the (UK based) insurers have been quite reasonable and paid up.

 

[newtothis]

If you have travel insurance it is worth a try making the claim. Yes they could try to reject it, but my experience has been that the (UK based) insurers have been quite reasonable and paid up.

Agreed, I was booked on a cycling holiday in July that I had couldn't do as I had to go to NZ due to a death in the family. The cycle tour company were complete r.soles that wouldn't give any refund, even tho they incurred no costs, but my insurer covered my losses. There's no harm in trying.
(note to holiday companies: you can piss off time rich/cash rich customers if you want, but only once)

 

[westernman]

note to holiday companies: you can piss off time rich/cash rich customers if you want, but only once

And their flow of new customers will suddenly dry up as well as soon as their behaviour is published on a forum such as this and shared among friends and other forums.

 

[Tranona]

Agreed, I was booked on a cycling holiday in July that I had couldn't do as I had to go to NZ due to a death in the family. The cycle tour company were complete r.soles that wouldn't give any refund, even tho they incurred no costs, but my insurer covered my losses. There's no harm in trying.
(note to holiday companies: you can piss off time rich/cash rich customers if you want, but only once)

What were their terms and conditions about cancellations? They may not have had any "costs" but they have lost the use of the cycle for the period you have paid for it unless they can re-sell the period. Not unusual to have a no refund policy although it is often graded depending on the notice given.

That is why you should take out insurance if you have booked a holiday with a no refund contract. Insurance is there to cover the unexpected as you found out.

Pleased you did not name them on here as without knowing what the contract was it is unreasonable to diss somebody in public without the full story.

 

[newtothis]

What were their terms and conditions about cancellations? They may not have had any "costs" but they have lost the use of the cycle for the period you have paid for it unless they can re-sell the period. Not unusual to have a no refund policy although it is often graded depending on the notice given.

That is why you should take out insurance if you have booked a holiday with a no refund contract. Insurance is there to cover the unexpected as you found out.

Pleased you did not name them on here as without knowing what the contract was it is unreasonable to diss somebody in public without the full story.

They never had the use of the cycle, as it was mine. They organise an own-bike group tour that had c.130 people on it. Sure, keep the non-refundable deposit, and any reasonable expenses, but to take the full amount, including its profit margin, under the circumstances, means they've lost my interest in any of their other tours and that money will go to their rivals. As I explained, I was insured and did successfully claim, which is what I recommend the OP does.

 

[Tranona]

They never had the use of the cycle, as it was mine. They organise an own-bike group tour that had c.130 people on it. Sure, keep the non-refundable deposit, and any reasonable expenses, but to take the full amount, including its profit margin, under the circumstances, means they've lost my interest in any of their other tours and that money will go to their rivals. As I explained, I was insured and did successfully claim, which is what I recommend the OP does.

Thanks for explaining - exactly the point I was making. before criticising somebody in public it helps to have the full story - although you still do not say what was in the contract about cancellations once the full amount has been paid.

Once you have signed a contract it is unfair to criticise unless the other party has not fulfilled their part.

 

[Irish Rover]

I believe the OP is no longer canvassing advice from the forum. Rather she's sharing very sound advice based on her unfortunate experience. Basically she's saying people would be better off chartering with a company who own their own boats. That way, if something goes wrong, you get to deal with the organ grinder and not the monkeys.

 

[dankilb]

Most travel insurance excludes maritime/aviation charters - same logic, presumably, that many home/storage contents insurance excludes marine/aero parts (cost!).

 

[Tranona]

What I have concluded from this sorry tale, is understand who you are contracting with. It might be more expensive to contract with a company that actually owns the boats but perhaps, ultimately more secure!

Sorry, that is simply not so. It is irrelevant that the booking was through an agent with an operator who used a boat owned by a third party. Irrelevant how much you paid, either in absolute terms or in comparison with other providers. That is quite normal in this business (I used to own a charter boat in Greece which was mostly used by the company that managed it for me but often if it was free it would be let out to another operator who had a booking).

What governs your booking is the contract and from what you say the other party fulfilled their side of the contract by having the boat available. You were not able to take it up because of circumstances beyond your control (and theirs). So why should they refund you? They have offered a discount as a goodwill measure.

"Don't forget your insurance when booking a charter holiday" might be a more appropriate thread title.

Hope you have luck with your claim on your insurance.

 

[Tranona]

I believe the OP is no longer canvassing advice from the forum. Rather she's sharing very sound advice based on her unfortunate experience. Basically she's saying people would be better off chartering with a company who own their own boats. That way, if something goes wrong, you get to deal with the organ grinder and not the monkeys.

That may be true if the failure was on the part of the provider - but it was not. It is irrelevant who owns the boat from a contract point of view and the provider has already offered a significant goodwill gesture.

 

[Irish Rover]

That may be true if the failure was on the part of the provider - but it was not. It is irrelevant who owns the boat from a contract point of view and the provider has already offered a significant goodwill gesture.

The OP fully understands and has acknowledged that there was no legal failure on the part of anyone involved in the provision of the service. However, she feels, and I agree, that there would be far more moral pressure on a company who own their own boats to be more flexible in circumstances where she was prevented by force majeure type circumstances from reaching the charter base.