Kicker range of movement needed, scandalising the main and all that sort of thing....

[Wing Mark]

I need to re-arrange the kicker on my boat, for a typical small cruising boat, fractional rig, how much does the kicker need to release?
Like many people I've done an RYA course and been shown/told how wonderful a technique scandalising the main by lifting the boom on the topping lift, is to depower the sail.
But outside of training schools, I saw someone do it once, about 23 years ago....
Does anyone routinely do this?
Should I ensure my kicker doesn't run out of range?
How much does the boom need to lift?

Doesn't dumping a yard of halyard do the same thing, better?
Although harder to put the power back on of course.

And if I decide not to worry about scandalising, how much should the boom lift if the kicker is released to its max?
I've sailed on at least one boat where the answer was probably 'not enough to catch the backstay'.....

 

[dunedin]

What size of boat and what type of mainsail - fully battened, soft battened (or even furling)?

With a fully battened main and rod kicker, the boom height adjustment is only about 20 cm at the end - but whilst we used to scandalise the sail to sail off a mooring in a previous smaller boat with soft battened main, don't attempt that on this boat. No topping lift anyway.

PS. Interesting idea of using halyard to mimic a scandalised sail. What would lack is the instant full sail when drop the topping lift, and some hard work to winch up halyard just at critical moment when need to focus on boat handling and pilotage. But might give some options for a fully battened sail IF also got an electric halyard winch.

 

[Wing Mark]

It's a 28ft boat, fractional rig, slab reefing, short battens.

In one of my dinghies, the 'fully eased' position of the kicker was chosen to let the leach of the main twist in a similar curve to the asy spinnaker.
Other boats I've raced, you need to be able to dump enough kicker for the main to depower 'plenty' when the spinnaker is trying to kill you on a reach.
This seems to create a loose consensus of a 2x2x2x2 cascade not having enough range.


I have various blocks and bits of dyneema etc in my spares box.
Might try a 4x4 cascade, as I seem to have more double blocks than anything else!

 

[LittleSister]

I've scandalised the main on occasions. Not often, but very useful at times.

Apart from having the additional length of kicker rope hanging about, if you aren't encumbered by a fully battened main why not?

 

[dunedin]

It's a 28ft boat, fractional rig, slab reefing, short battens.

In one of my dinghies, the 'fully eased' position of the kicker was chosen to let the leach of the main twist in a similar curve to the asy spinnaker.
Other boats I've raced, you need to be able to dump enough kicker for the main to depower 'plenty' when the spinnaker is trying to kill you on a reach.
This seems to create a loose consensus of a 2x2x2x2 cascade not having enough range.


I have various blocks and bits of dyneema etc in my spares box.
Might try a 4x4 cascade, as I seem to have more double blocks than anything else!

Yes a 2x2x2x2 cascade soon runs out of travel. Agree that ability to spill off the top of the main is important - but probably doesn’t need huge travel.
One other point, check the boom angle with reef 2, or 3 if fitted, set. The end of our boom goes up quite a lot in the deep reefs, presumably to keep the boom end well clear of big waves if rolling downwind in a big blow.

 

[Wing Mark]

I've scandalised the main on occasions. Not often, but very useful at times.

Apart from having the additional length of kicker rope hanging about, if you aren't encumbered by a fully battened main why not?

Because I want a kicker that's easy to tension by hand, rather than with a winch, so it needs to be at least 12:1 maybe more.
That means some sort of 'cascade', maybe a 4:1 tackle pulling on a 3:1 or something, which can only have a certain range between 'fully extended' and 'block to block'.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I scandalise my main on occasion, a most useful technique. I also lift boom well clear of cockpit if in harbour so again need freedom from the kicker.

The 4 to one blocks (2 and 2) on my kicker give more than enough power to fully tension my mainsail on my 27ft boat by hand and I cant see why anyone would need more oomph.
I dont much like that arrangement as would prefer fixed boom pivot so kicker only stops boom lift when running down wind, but it does the job

Having a 12 to one system (6 and 6) would give so much friction that it would not readily auto release when kicker not needed but would need to be vigorously lifted using the topping lift.

We are talking small cruising boat here not 20 meter J class I take it

 

[Wing Mark]

I scandalise my main on occasion, a most useful technique. I also lift boom well clear of cockpit if in harbour so again need freedom from the kicker.

The ....

Thanks.
I'm not here to convert you to the merits of a powerful kicker, so I'll leave that aside, except to say that I want a kicker I the wife can adjust while helming, with one hand, without moving to get a straight pull on it.
Putting it in a small cam cleat instead of a jammer will also help other issues I have.
Also bear in mind, I don't have a traveller to let down to leeward as the breeze comes up.

Regarding scandalising, can you offer an opinion as to how far the boom needs to rise, before the main loses most of its power? 15 degrees? 30? more?
Once there's a decent S-bend in the leach, the sail is pretty much neutralised?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Scandalising a mainsail it loses most power close hauled, and little dead down wind, so probably most useful more on the beam. I would normally raise it about 20 degrees so tail of boom lifts a foot to 18 inches. One scandalises foresail by wrapping rope around the whole lot but thats different. The amount of relief of force by moving mainsheet to wrong end of traveller is fairly small compared with simply slacking the mainsheet but scandalising the sail keeps things under better control than that

I certainly dont use two hands to take in my kicker on 4:1 blocks but if the cordage runs to cockpit then there will be extra resistance. Still 12:1 seems well in excess of anything I have ever seen and Barton reccomend 4:1 for cruising. The cascaded blocks as set up by Barton 8:1 give restricted range for scandalising as they are set for tightness not range but you could go for two triple blocks to get 6:1

 

[dunedin]

…….
I certainly dont use two hands to take in my kicker on 4:1 blocks but if the cordage runs to cockpit then there will be extra resistance. Still 12:1 seems well in excess of anything I have ever seen and Barton reccomend 4:1 for cruising. The cascaded blocks as set up by Barton 8:1 give restricted range for scandalising as they are set for tightness not range but you could go for two triple blocks to get 6:1

Each to their own, but I used to use a 32:1 kicker on a sailing dinghy - and in the days when Laser dinghies were only allowed 3:1, we sometimes needed two people to ram on tight before leaving the shore.
Think we now have 16:1 (via cascades) on 38 footer, and very occasionally give a tension via the winch.

 

[Wing Mark]

Scandalising a mainsail it loses most power close hauled, and little dead down wind, so probably most useful more on the beam. I would normally raise it about 20 degrees so tail of boom lifts a foot to 18 inches. One scandalises foresail by wrapping rope around the whole lot but thats different. The amount of relief of force by moving mainsheet to wrong end of traveller is fairly small compared with simply slacking the mainsheet but scandalising the sail keeps things under better control than that

I certainly dont use two hands to take in my kicker on 4:1 blocks but if the cordage runs to cockpit then there will be extra resistance. Still 12:1 seems well in excess of anything I have ever seen and Barton reccomend 4:1 for cruising. The cascaded blocks as set up by Barton 8:1 give restricted range for scandalising as they are set for tightness not range but you could go for two triple blocks to get 6:1

Thanks.
20 degrees is easily done. I'm really grateful for this information.

Yes a lot of people are happy with cruising kickers where you can only tension the leach with the sheet and then take the slack out of the kicker.
I don't have an issue with other people sailing their boats differently.

My mainsheet is 4:1 and being very close to the clew, it has a much greater mechanical advantage than the kicker.
Even Laser dinghies have kickers of up to 15:1 now. But I sail mine with 12:1 to reduce the amount of string wrapping around my feet!

A high mechanical advantage is also good for giving fine control.

The trick with cascades is to use decent ball blocks and string that's not too fat in the lightly loaded parts, then the tackle will run out without excessive friction.

 

[John the kiwi]

I have a 26 ft boat and my cascade kicker is 16:1. Its about right for my fully battened loose footed main i think. I can certainly put a good bow in the boom without too much effort. i have thought of doubling it but seriously think i might damage the boom in the heat of racing. Never tried scandalising, but she does heave to very well with no flogging of mainsail...

 

[oldbloke]

If lack of range is an issue, could you have the last purchase on the coach roof between the turning block and the cleat?.

 

[Wing Mark]

If lack of range is an issue, could you have the last purchase on the coach roof between the turning block and the cleat?.

You could, but the block would be lying on the deck waiting to get trod on whenever the system was slack.
A skid hazard in this instance I think.

 

[doug748]

.............And if I decide not to worry about scandalising..................

If you don't use the manoeuvre and think you may never want to, it's not worth bothering about. Tho I might put a quick release snap shackle into the system so it could be done sharpish if required.

It's handy if you sail on or off moorings or anchor under sail.

.

 

[Wing Mark]

If you don't use the manoeuvre and think you may never want to, it's not worth bothering about. Tho I might put a quick release snap shackle into the system so it could be done sharpish if required.

It's handy if you sail on or off moorings or anchor under sail.

.

The boat is new to me. The kind of sailing I intend to do is new to me.
If I can avoid ruling out scandalising the main without compromising the function of the kicker, it seems like a potential bonus.

 

[dunedin]

The boat is new to me. The kind of sailing I intend to do is new to me.
If I can avoid ruling out scandalising the main without compromising the function of the kicker, it seems like a potential bonus.

As doug48 suggests, perhaps sizing for normal sailing, but making the atttachment to the boom detachachable - add a 30cm dyneema strop permanently attached. So if need to scandalise detach main clip from boom and still got attached but 30cm longer.

 

[Wing Mark]

As doug48 suggests, perhaps sizing for normal sailing, but making the atttachment to the boom detachachable - add a 30cm dyneema strop permanently attached. So if need to scandalise detach main clip from boom and still got attached but 30cm longer.

That's a neat idea, but I think if Oldmanofthehills is not badly wrong, my system will be fine.
It's a cruising boat, typically divided by a pram hood, so any operations need to be done from either behind the hood or forward of it, there's no 'just reach forwards and adjust that...'

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

On my keelboat, dropping the main a bit is the instant depower of choice - which I need for parking. Without a topping lift that means the boom is on the side deck, which is normally a big plus. The kicker is about a billion to one, so no chance of instantly easing that.

One suggestion is a second jammer with the end of the (lower) kicker strop brought back to it. You'll still have to sort the 16:1 out before getting going again, but it might work for you.

 

[doug748]

As doug48 suggests, perhaps sizing for normal sailing, but making the atttachment to the boom detachachable - add a 30cm dyneema strop permanently attached. So if need to scandalise detach main clip from boom and still got attached but 30cm longer.

Good point, that is what I would do.

It would take little more time than uncleating a less powerful kicker with long tail. Speed is of the essence because you are mostly doing this when going into tricky situations with sail set.

.