Kicker and Outhaul

[BAtoo]

Nik
Save your money. The kicker on a masthead rig cruising boat like a Snappy 23 is not designed to allow adjustment when sailing. You use the mainsheet to haul in the boom and simply take the slack out of the kicker. It only serves to stop the boom lifting, and opening the leech, as you come off the wind and ease the mainsheet. Powerful adjustable kickers are only for boats with fractional bendy masts. Similarly with the outhaul, set it up before you set off with no wind in the sail and leave it.

I think for the sake of a simple 4:1 system that I'd go for a decent kicker. More importantly I'd go for a good outhaul, at least 2:1, 4:1 if the boom is long enough to take it. Flattening the main in any boat is a good way of depowering when the wind pipes up, and helping the shape of a slightly less good sail.

I'm an inveterate tweaker of any bit of string....so I might be biased

 

[Fire99]

I think for the sake of a simple 4:1 system that I'd go for a decent kicker. More importantly I'd go for a good outhaul, at least 2:1, 4:1 if the boom is long enough to take it. Flattening the main in any boat is a good way of depowering when the wind pipes up, and helping the shape of a slightly less good sail.

I'm an inveterate tweaker of any bit of string....so I might be biased

I'd go with that.

I'm not attempting to convert the snappy into a Fastnet Racer but the current kicker is all but useless and in the big scheme of things, a simple 4:1 setup doesn't appear to be that expensive.

Now, carbon fibre masts!!....................just kiddin'

 

[VicS]

An effective kicker is essential to stop the boom lifting when off the wind.

Close hauled a decent main sheet track, across the forward end of the cockpit preferably, with proper control lines on the traveler would probably make the useful improvement in mainsail shape control.

My boat has the main sheet traveler on a relatively short horse, with no control lines, to clear the tiller.

I suspect the Snapdragon my not be much better

 

[Fire99]

My boat has the main sheet traveler on a relatively short horse, with no control lines, to clear the tiller.

I suspect the Snapdragon my not be much better

Mine runs across the transom on the stern. It's a reasonable length but you have little control (other than metal friction) as to where it sits. I think the Traveller could do with a bit of 'tweak-a-roo' too.

 

[William_H]

An effective kicker is essential to stop the boom lifting when off the wind.

Close hauled a decent main sheet track, across the forward end of the cockpit preferably, with proper control lines on the traveler would probably make the useful improvement in mainsail shape control.

My boat has the main sheet traveler on a relatively short horse, with no control lines, to clear the tiller.

I suspect the Snapdragon my not be much better

I think you are right Vic. My traveler goes across the bridge deck next to the main entrance hatch. It is about 1.5 metres wide. It does provide a lot of pull down on the boom. Indeed some of my crew are strong lads and can easily load the 4 part mainsheet to the point where main traveler doesn't move easily. I have to get them to ease the main just a bit. I long ago had to provide cable support underneath the bridge deck to support the track. The deck was bending.
An easily adjusted traveler means that we habitually when beating pull the traveler up to windward a bit to get the boom in the centre of the boat. I have a vang which because of restricted room under the boom is mostly useless but as you say is needed to hold the boom down. Actually I have sailed for long periods without vang but then the wide main sheet traveler still holds the boom down. I need to keep main sheet on when running to minimise chafe of main on spreaders. (swept aft)
Anyway I have sailed on a hot racing boat a bit.( Bakewell White 8) They have a pedestal in the middle of the cockpit floor. 3 ropes emerge from this. One is main sheet one is backstay tension and one is boom vang.
The idea being that all 3 are adjusted continuously in gusts. The backstay is amazing the way it dumps power from the top of the main sail. The vang works well with a lot of power just as well as the main sheet does not work on a traveler.
Anyway just waffling. olewill

 

[oilyrag]

I think for the sake of a simple 4:1 system that I'd go for a decent kicker. More importantly I'd go for a good outhaul, at least 2:1, 4:1 if the boom is long enough to take it. Flattening the main in any boat is a good way of depowering when the wind pipes up, and helping the shape of a slightly less good sail.

I'm an inveterate tweaker of any bit of string....so I might be biased

I agree but merely pointing out in this case that the standard set up cannot be improved without spending vast amounts of cash to no avail.
The mainsheet is the tool you use to apply the correct leech tension to this type of boat. The kicker is simply an adjustable strop which holds the tension when the main sheet is eased.
Similarly with the outhaul, you will never be able to adjust it with the wind in the sail even with a 2:1 or 4:1 purchase (if there is space to fit) and with no wind in the sail a bit of string to pull is all that's needed.

On the other hand, I don't know what traveller arrangement this boat has, but I'm sure it could be improved and money spent on this would produce an actual improvement to the sailing experience!

 

[Fire99]

I agree but merely pointing out in this case that the standard set up cannot be improved without spending vast amounts of cash to no avail.

Ahh and here is the defining point. Original.
My Snapdragon (1970 ish) clearly has had a few things changed over the years. One being that it originally had boom furling on the mainsail which is now slab reefing.
The Kicker is definitely not original and is clearly ineffective, hence a little upgrade (or perhaps a return to something of similar spec to the original)

 

[lw395]

A decent outhaul that can be adjusted under way is worth having.
On dinghies we use a 4:1, on a small cruiser that would probably do.
Low-stretch rope is cheap enough these days, if you lead the control forward to near the gooseneck, you can let the outhaul off on a reach.
It's only 3 pulleys and a cleat!

The kicker depends on the boom. If the boom is strong enough, fit a powerful kicker, then the mainsheet will be a lot lighter and sailing upwind in a breeze will be more pleasant.

But in any case, a reasonable kicker led back so the helm can adjust it allows better control of sail shape, which can make a great difference to speed on a reach.
Pulleys and rope are not that expensive, there is no need to fight against controls.

Rigging tackles as cascades, i.e. a 2:1 acting on a 2:1 (etc) is much less friction than double blocks, and cheaper in pulleys too.

While you're at it, a cunningham is worth thinking about too, there was a thread a little while back.

 

[Fire99]

Rigging tackles as cascades, i.e. a 2:1 acting on a 2:1 (etc) is much less friction than double blocks, and cheaper in pulleys too.

Ahhhh riiiiight! Actually i've no idea how to rig tackles as cascades. I'm only just working out how to rig a double / triple block.

 

[Fantasie 19]

Ahhhh riiiiight! Actually i've no idea how to rig tackles as cascades. I'm only just working out how to rig a double / triple block.

I didn't either ...but you live and learn.....

 

[Fire99]

I didn't either ...but you live and learn.....

Crumbs!!!

Top effort. Thanks for that!

 

[lw395]

These days, you don't need to get wires made up for a cascade, just get some 12 strand dyneema or vectran, the splicing instructions are on the web and really easy.

But for a basic cruising boat, any pre-stretched rope should be ok.

 

[KREW2]

Mine runs across the transom on the stern. It's a reasonable length but you have little control (other than metal friction) as to where it sits. I think the Traveller could do with a bit of 'tweak-a-roo' too.

Mine too has the mainsheet attached at the end of the boom, with a traveller on the transom. Going upwind in a strong breeze I set the traveller down to leeward and haul the mainsheet in tight. I only need my kicker running down wind.

 

[oilyrag]

Ahh and here is the defining point. Original.
My Snapdragon (1970 ish) clearly has had a few things changed over the years. One being that it originally had boom furling on the mainsail which is now slab reefing.
The Kicker is definitely not original and is clearly ineffective, hence a little upgrade (or perhaps a return to something of similar spec to the original)

The endless hours we spend tweaking and modifying our boats are one of the great joys of sailing.
When is comes to updating 70's roller furling booms from a 'claw' over the rolled mainsail, to a slab reefing boom, the claw will no longer work and a conventional attachment point below the boom is used. The actual attachment method is of no consequence.
Please understand that all the kicker on this type of boat does is stop the boom lifting when the mainsheet is eased. Any old piece of string tied off to the boom and mast foot would do the job effectively so unless your current kicker is broken it cannot possibly be 'clearly ineffective'.

 

[lw395]

....
Please understand that all the kicker on this type of boat does is stop the boom lifting when the mainsheet is eased. Any old piece of string tied off to the boom and mast foot would do the job effectively so unless your current kicker is broken it cannot possibly be 'clearly ineffective'.

Just because it's an old boat, there is no reason to accept inefficient gear if you don't like it.

If you reach with a spinnaker, having a kicker you can let off and get back on again is a very good idea IMHO. We certainly made good use of it in our 1930's keelboat.
It's also nice to have a kicker you can adjust without having to gorilla the mainsheet.

The outhaul is possibly more important though, being able to flatten off the sail when the breeze picks up seems like a fairly basic feature to me. Also being able to let it off when the breeze drops, without fear off struggling to get it back on again.
I admit I'm a dinghy racer, but on a small cruiser these things can make the difference between stemming the tide and going backwards.

 

[oilyrag]

Just because it's an old boat, there is no reason to accept inefficient gear if you don't like it.

If you reach with a spinnaker, having a kicker you can let off and get back on again is a very good idea IMHO. We certainly made good use of it in our 1930's keelboat.
It's also nice to have a kicker you can adjust without having to gorilla the mainsheet.

The outhaul is possibly more important though, being able to flatten off the sail when the breeze picks up seems like a fairly basic feature to me. Also being able to let it off when the breeze drops, without fear off struggling to get it back on again.
I admit I'm a dinghy racer, but on a small cruiser these things can make the difference between stemming the tide and going backwards.

No disagreement at all but the OP is discussing a bilge keel Snapdragon 23 and expressed a concern that his kicker and outhaul were lacking in some respect. Things can always be improved and no reason why they shouldn't if that's what the owner wants to spend his money on. Would the suggested improvements make any difference between stemming the tide and going backwards on this class of boat? not a chance!

 

[lw395]

No disagreement at all but the OP is discussing a bilge keel Snapdragon 23 and expressed a concern that his kicker and outhaul were lacking in some respect. Things can always be improved and no reason why they shouldn't if that's what the owner wants to spend his money on. Would the suggested improvements make any difference between stemming the tide and going backwards on this class of boat? not a chance!

Not sailed a Snapdragon, but I have sailed a couple of small bilge keelers. Being able to let off the outhaul and power up the main makes a big difference in a boat that needs all the help it can get.
I quite enjoy sailing boats like that, it's quite satisfying to get the best out of a modest boat without spending tons on new sails etc, and anything that keeps you sailing instead of starting the motor is good in my book.
It's not a lot of cash to spend, even if you buy new blocks, and I enjoy doing this sort of work on the boats I get to sail on. Better still, many racing sailors have a few old blocks they'll give away if they think they are going to a good home.

Sailing is a broad church as they say, I've got a lot of time for people who enjoy different branches of it, I don't want to inflict my ideas on people but I think it's worth trying to get the best out of what we have.

 

[John the kiwi]

Kickers arent just for off the wind!

I use my not-new boat for a some round the buoys racing just for fun but mostly for cruising. i.e i am not a serious racer, but even so l want to optimize the rig and sails so i have so enlisted my local sail maker (who is also an ex Olympic sailing representative) to help me tune the rig and repair and re-cut my old sails plus build me a new jib.
Just last week we discussed the kicker and he recommended that I rig a cascade to achieve at least 8:1 to replace existing 4:1.
This change was specifically aimed at sailing close hauled in strong winds.
He pointed out that while the kicker doesn't do very much in light to moderate airs when boom is over the traveler (which is 1200mm wide on bridge deck of my 26 ft boat), it is not true in a blow. In heavy weather the boom is naturally not sheeted so far in and is no longer directly above the traveler so the main-sheet is no longer acting as effectively to flatten the sail. What happens is the sail bellies out and increases your capsizing force and reduces your driving force. In these conditions a good kicker is needed to keep sail flat. This will reduce heel and increase sailing speed and generally comfort.

As a general comment to those that cherish the belief that they don't need to worry about sail trim cos they are only cruising, I would suggest that you don't have to be racing to appreciate the benefits of more forward drive and a lot less knock down that result from well trimmed sails and rigs. Makes any sailing more comfortable and enjoyable.

cheers

 

[Fire99]

Firstly my I add, it's a TRIPLE keel Snapdragon.. Not a Bilge.. And did you know a Snapdragon 23 won some race at some point, somewhere. Well, round Britain to be exact, so it's had its moments.. Kinda.

Anyway, back on track.. (excuse the pun) cheers for the more positive replies. I also race on a squib so I like to have things working properly. The kicker on the Snapdragon is hopeless because in a nutshell, the blocks are so small and the rope so narrow in diameter, it's far too springy for a 12ft boom, and the jamming pin thing in the block is touch and go on whether it grips or not. So cutting to the chase, it's a pain in the arse. I just want something 'normal' with decent diameter rope that I can get a good grip of and once pulled to desired tension, will stay that way.

So cutting to the chase I'm not concerned about those that don't think it's worthwhile, I'm interested in what practical setups people use. Cheers for all suggestions

 

[Fire99]

I use my not-new boat for a some round the buoys racing just for fun but mostly for cruising. i.e i am not a serious racer, but even so l want to optimize the rig and sails so i have so enlisted my local sail maker (who is also an ex Olympic sailing representative) to help me tune the rig and repair and re-cut my old sails plus build me a new jib.
Just last week we discussed the kicker and he recommended that I rig a cascade to achieve at least 8:1 to replace existing 4:1.
This change was specifically aimed at sailing close hauled in strong winds.
He pointed out that while the kicker doesn't do very much in light to moderate airs when boom is over the traveler (which is 1200mm wide on bridge deck of my 26 ft boat), it is not true in a blow. In heavy weather the boom is naturally not sheeted so far in and is no longer directly above the traveler so the main-sheet is no longer acting as effectively to flatten the sail. What happens is the sail bellies out and increases your capsizing force and reduces your driving force. In these conditions a good kicker is needed to keep sail flat. This will reduce heel and increase sailing speed and generally comfort.

As a general comment to those that cherish the belief that they don't need to worry about sail trim cos they are only cruising, I would suggest that you don't have to be racing to appreciate the benefits of more forward drive and a lot less knock down that result from well trimmed sails and rigs. Makes any sailing more comfortable and enjoyable.

cheers

Amen to that.. Thanks for the interesting info too!