Ketch - To Reef or not to Reef?

Dougal

Dougal

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Just wondering if anyone else does the same...?

I have an elderly 32ft, ketch rigged motor-sailor, which does both appallingly - think bricks and sails;-)

Although there are two reefing points in the main and one in the mizzen, I simply NEVER reef. Seems I never need to, or haven't thus far with this boat.

What I've discovered is that once I reach a point of thinking, "should I be reefing about now", I simply drop the main entirely, and do whatever is necessary with the roller furling genny.

With my old bus, the difference in speed between reefing and running under genny and mizzen alone is minimal. Plus, I'm never in a hurry anyway;-)

Just seems SOOOOOO much easier for me.
 
Pretty much the same. I reef the genny as it is a bit oversized. If beating I may then remove the Mizzen, as it gets back winded a bit anyway. But if reaching, then over F5, just stow the main & use enough genny to balance the mizzen. She sails fine like that.

I have also used the stow the main & balance genny/ mizzen combination to control speed when sailing into a dock, harbour or to an anchorage. Verry effective at controlling sped without losing the ability to steer. Very versatile rig.

If you are worried about speed, sort yourself out a Mizzen staysail for long broad reach tacks.
 
Mizzen Jib and Diesel

On the basis of "Gentlemen never beat to Windward" I used the combination of Mizzen, Jib and Diesel on my old Westerly Pentland which had pretty old sails. Never bothered to reef as usually single handed and just trimmed it on the furling Genny and ran the engine at about 1500 - 2000 rpm and always made good progress.

Loved that boat, sold it in 98 to help fund kids through University and have just come across it again on the West Coast of France and it is in fantastic condition. Felt quite jealous.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
+1

Genny and mizzen is a good combo, haven't reefed in anger yet, just somedays not bothered with the main when speed isn't an issue but setting all three sails is!
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Yup, done that too for short jaunts. Bermudan ketch is a very flexible rig.

The only rig that beats it for cruising is probably a gaff cutter ketch, with a bermudan mizzen. I like the cutter rig for looks, balance & flexibility, the gaff main is a really powerful downwind sail when pointy sails lack size. I'd mae the mizzen a pointy one just for simplicity as it isn't a lot of help downwind anyway.
 
Dougal said:
Just wondering if anyone else does the same...?
Although there are two reefing points in the main and one in the mizzen, I simply NEVER reef.
Click to expand...
Remember one occasion when we have put this reef in mizzen, already being on storm jib. It got to 12... Now, it's probably never needed, but ordering reefbands on mizzen and main anyway :D
 
We do reef the main before altering the other sails, we have a Moody 42 ketch, then a turn or two in the genny, then second reef main, unless beating l usually leave the mizzen alone. She is very comfortable even in a blow and we have been in a few situations when hunkering down below with an eye on the radar and a once a ten minute scan on deck was the order for the day!

I find it a very sensible rig as all sails are manageable and unlike the op ours sails like a dream.
 
Searush said:
The only rig that beats it for cruising is probably a gaff cutter ketch, with a bermudan mizzen. I like the cutter rig for looks, balance & flexibility, the gaff main is a really powerful downwind sail when pointy sails lack size. I'd mae the mizzen a pointy one just for simplicity as it isn't a lot of help downwind anyway.
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Well, KS is very nearly that, being a gaff yawl with cutter fore-triangle. Gaff mizzen for looks, though most boats had bermudan as you suggest.

Certainly agree it's a very flexible sail-plan.

Pete
 
To original question: depends also on boat's displacement. OP's motorsailer is heavy, so can stand up to the canvas with no problem until it's way to much and main becomes unnecessary.
On lighter displacement and more modern design (less area underwater) a reef will be necessary somewhere below 6B for good windward ability. Over-canvassed she would be drifting too much, while without the main may have not enough power to go against waves, as light boat lacks mass, momentum.
Ketch rig's week point is windward in moderate wind, so setting just right sail makes quite a difference.

And +1 for gaff main :D
Sad it's hard to find a ketch among boats now produced, or to hear that two-masted rig is passe, "not efficient"...
After all - Atlantic crossing in 6 days was done on two sticks :)
 
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Searush said:
But that's "not efficient" to windard isn't it?

And every one knows that a gentleman never sails to windward . . .
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Well, somehow always prefered two stics or more, or a yardarm to contemplate the scenery :)
Yesssss, to windward is painfull. Then again - I'm not a gentleman. I'm an foreigner. :D
So to reach UK had to beat against some 10, across, for a week. Life is brutal.
 
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I used to sail as a "Bosun" on an OYC Ketch. 72ft 30T.
Different skippers had different ways.
It was almost 30 years ago so memory may be a bit faulty and this may not always make sense. And may even be downright wrong..
No doubt other former crew recall different set ups.

We liked to beat to windward the first day. Blew the cob webs out, got the crew working together. Most of The Mal de Mer was eliminated as sea legs were gained.

We certainly sailed particularly the first day main down some times. Not necessarily often.
Some skippers liked this others felt it left a great hole in the rig and she didn’t sail right. But with a fresh green crew and higher beafort number some felt it eliminated some risks particularly when we were going down wind.

As wind picked up
Most commonly followed this .
Rarely used light winds only
The big Genny and the mizzen staysail.

Replaced early By the No 1

Most common rig
Usually the No2.
Stay sail.
Main.
Mizzen.

I put a lot of hours in hand sewing seams in the working No 2 if we blew a sail it was usually the No 2. Just after going about..
Blew a seam in the main once. Tight bunching line was the culprit. 2man job to sow it up as we passed needle back and forth.
We were good customers for local sail makers.

Reefs were often put in before sailing. Then shaken out if not needed.

Then 1st reef in main. Followed by 2nd.
No 3
No 3 mizzen reefed for balance.
3rd reef
By now it was pretty darn windy.

Regular Skipper usually kept the staysail till the end. Come hell and high water.
Triple reefed main and staysail to windward.
Relief usually got rid of staysail first. And would use storm sail.

Both preferred a triple reefed main over try sail.

When hell and high water . It was Skippers choice of down to just double reefed mizzen or triple reefed main and skippers choice of stay sail No3 or storm Jib
She still went to windward. In any wind. But we struggled to make better than 4.5 or 5 points.
On one occasion last resort was batten down the hatches most crew below and bare poles.
Down wind I had full steerage making 4kn up to a broad reach on bare poles. It was windy.
“Sailed her” down wind to shelter anchorage.

Grania the Nic 55 Yawl couldn‘t match our speed but could beat us hands down to windward. She could always point higher.
Duet was lovely but we could blow by her on most if not all points of sail. She had a good turn of speed down wind but could not point any where close to us. She had a rep for being very wet but carried a lot of sail.. Never sailed her. But other big gaffer I sailed we got rid of the main to get id of the heavy gaff didn’t like the weight high up in a big sea.
If I was to pick my ideal rig id go for a big Bermuda Yawl. You don’t see them now except for beautiful old classics.
For a big boat the Ketch is great very versatile don’t think there is a right or wrong way to set it up just the way you like. I tended towards keeping the triple reefed main with No 3 or storm sail. for last resort. If going to wind ward The relief skipper did this and it seamed to work the best he was the oldest and longest serving at the time. My regular skipper never sailed her this way that I recall.

The boomed stay sail was self tacking and very heavy so keeping it till the end was very work able. But some felt the boom was a hazard to be got rid of early.

From what I recall the real secrets to sailing to windward regardless of rig when its blowing a hoolie is keeping her balanced.
Balancing is what ketches do best.
Yawls balance well and have better pointing ability.

A box of cornflakes or a paper bag will sail down wind just fine if not efficiently.:D
 
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I've only sailed a couple of smaller ketches, we found sailing in waves, without the main, the boat wanted to bear off when the bow was up and luff when the stern was up.
Losing the mizzen, going to a reefed main and medium jib seemed much easier on the helm and made better progress.
Ketches vary a lot in the ratios of sail areas, so I suspect generalisations are of limited value.
 
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