Keel Stud Corrosion

[HappyHurley]

For those with more experience than me please [my last boat was an encapsulated long keel] is this likely superficial, or something more sinister that would require dropping the keel to investigate ?

These are the forward studs. There are four more aft in a similar arrangement [with less visible corrosion].

Background: the boat has been lying afloat unused and neglected for the last couple of seasons [so no heating, or dehumidifier].

 

[Tranona]

That looks fine. Key thing with keel bolts/studs in GRP boats is the sealing of the keel/hull joint. If this is sound then water cannot get at the studs. You might want to clean up the staining and maybe paint the flowcoar.

 

[dankilb]

Yup that’s nothing compared to ours! They sat with freshwater in the bilge for some years and a couple - out of 12 - are now actively ‘rusty’. The surveyor agreed with me that, at some point, they should be pulled and the keel dropped etc...

So I’d be quite happy with a set in that visual condition. Just take steps to keep them that way, as suggested above.

 

[vyv_cox]

It is very common to find stainless steel keel studs and nuts with mild steel washers or load spreading plates such as yours. Only a few years ago it would have been considerably more expensive to supply these in stainless steel, less so today. Quite often the washer rusts and looks bad but the studs and nuts are in perfect condition. You can check with a magnet.

 

[Neeves]

I'm not expert, at all, on keels (ours, we have 2, are hollow and fibreglass). Our previous yacht had a keel and bolts. If it is washers between nuts and plate that are corroding then presumably you could take them off one at a time and replace with stainless washers. The studs and nuts look, well lovely - considering their possible age.

I think Vyv is suggesting the the spreading plate is not stainless, and that you can check if it is magnetic - but unless you specially cleaned the plate it looks like there maybe washers under the nuts and it is they that have corroded - though there is a lot of rust staining and the photo to me is not quite clear, enough..

If you were sitting on the hard, on the keel, you could take all 4 nuts off, remove the plate and replace with a new one.

But seek another opinion - I'm just throwing ideas at you with an idea of trying to save you money and anguish.

On a separate but related issue - I would check where the water has come from that caused the rust in the first place. If its coming from a break in the seal between keel and hull that then will need attention. If its rainwater coming though the hatch - it also needs attention - but then has nothing to do with keel integrity.

If you are going to paint to cover the rust staining - I'd give it an acid wash first, and you might decide it does not need to be painted.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

As Jonathan says, close inspection seems to show locking washers beneath the nuts and it may only be these that have rusted. My experience is that if water penetrates up the bolts from the keel it appears rusty and is more likely on a beat than a run. Mild steel, and even brass, will corrode inside a nominally dry boat and some corrosion of these washers is quite normal.

 

[HappyHurley]

Here's a shot of the forward end of the keel [yes, the antifouling is shocking, and yes, the keel needs grinding back].

People's thoughts ?

 

[Dipper]

This was what my keel studs looked like when I bought my boat. Your nuts look pristine by comparison (no giggling at the back please). Luckily the corrosion hadn't affected the base of the stud so the hull/keel joint was sound.

When I replaced mine, I painted them with the cheapest bitumen based car body underseal that I could find. It's flexible and 'self sealing' if it gets damaged and protects the nuts from moisture in the air. The original studs were encased in GRP but cracks had allowed water sitting in the bilges to get in.

 

[Neeves]

If those are not stainless washers between the nuts and the plate then they seem to have corroded and having corroded your keel seems to be moving - or that is what the cracks round the keel flange look like to me. But note I am NOT a keel expert and I'm only looking at your pictures. I confess to have followed yacht commissioning and have watched keep installations in detail.

This suggests the water in the Blige is seawater, not rainwater coming from a poor deck fitting.

The stud and nuts look good - but I'd drop the keel, clean it all up and reseat the keel (replacing with new (the studs, nuts, plates) as necessary).

It might seem daunting but for your yard it will be part of their skill resource. Its also not difficult, as long as the yard have done it previously.


If you go the route I summarise - there are people here who can offer advice - use the forum!

Jonathan

 

[HappyHurley]

Thanks to all for the opinions ! Keep them coming.

Here's another view of the keel/hull join.

It's not my boat [yet], so polling for thoughts on the major issues to determine whether it's even worth an offer.

 

[dankilb]

This was what my keel studs looked like when I bought my boat. Your nuts look pristine by comparison (no giggling at the back please). Luckily the corrosion hadn't affected the base of the stud so the hull/keel joint was sound.

When I replaced mine, I painted then with the cheapest bitumen based car body underseal that I could find. It's flexible and 'self sealing' if it gets damaged and protects the nuts from moisture in the air. The original studs were encased in GRP but cracks had allowed water sitting in the bilges to get in.

Thanks for sharing that. It’s in almost the exact same condition as the worse of our. Sound like similar circumstances too - previous owners hadn’t realised fresh water was collecting in areas of the bilge and eventually the gelcoat opened up revealing the corroded top of the studs/nuts.

It’s reassuring to see the state of the rest of the stud. Not least because it gives me confidence that they’ll still come out in one piece, but also that our keel is likely to stay attached in the meantime (with “no serious passage-making” as prescribed in the survey).

 

[HappyHurley]

And for completeness, here's the aft end.

 

[Neeves]

To me, from your 1st photo, it looks as if there may be a washer between nut and the plate. In the second photo there might also be washers, but it might equally be a shim of Sikaflex that squeezed out when they last attached the keel. Only you can confirm if there are washers under the nuts. If there are washers they could be the source of the rust, again difficult to tell from the photos. But the first photo seems to show more rust where a washer might be. But the studs and nuts look good - but that does not tell us what the studs are like in the keel, or where they exit the keel.

In any event - I think you need to factor in removing and re-seating the keel. You can do all the work yourself - you just need the yacht lifted twice, to remove than re-seat, and have somewhere to rest the hull without its keel (raised so that you can work on the interface). You also need to support the keel.

If you are not handy, or find the idea slightly daunting - I'd walk away, now. If you, cannot invest much time and/or want to go sailing this, your, summer - I might still walk away. If she is cheap, you have fallen in love, the rest of the yacht is just what you want, you relish the challenge and unknown........

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

Thanks to all for the opinions ! Keep them coming.

Here's another view of the keel/hull join.

It's not my boat [yet], so polling for thoughts on the major issues to determine whether it's even worth an offer.

This, and your other photos do not raise any alarm bells - look exactly like you would expect on an older and well used boat. If there were any breaks in the seal to the hull you would get serious rust streaks down the sides of the keel emanating from corrosion on an exposed portion of the top of the keel. Can't see any sign of that. The rust staining inside is from bilge water and again quite normal.

Would not dream of removing the keel as it is a major job as it will be well stuck on - and then you have to make sure you stick it back on firmly as well! Assume if you are thinking of buying the boat you will have a survey, but guess that unless there is something nasty not seen in the photos, the surveyor will make similar observations. If the boat is a long term purchase worth having the hull and keel blasted so you start your ownership with a nice clean smooth bottom (of the boat, that is).

 

[HappyHurley]

Thanks for all of your opinions.

As you'll have seen from my other posts there is significant other work needed [saildrive gaiter, heat exchanger/exhaust elbow, engine mounts, full engine service, new TBS deck panels, replacement standing & running rigging and stripping the hull & keel back, priming and antifouling...].

Instrumentation is basic and original 1995 fit, as are the sails.

AFAIK there has been no recent maintenance whatsoever. There's certainly no documentation proving it.

By my calculations there's ~£10,000 of professional work needed to get her sailing this season [if DiY the season would be a write-off], and that's BEFORE upgrading anything.

The owners have indicated they're willing to drop her to £8,000 below a tip-top sailaway example on an 'as-is, where is' [no survey] basis.

My gut instinct tells me it's a risky proposition.

 

[TernVI]

If someone offers you a deal on an 'as is, where is ' basis, that does not mean you can't have a survey, it means that the price won't drop as a result of issues the survey reveals. Your insurer may require a survey (or you might get a better quote with a survey).

So you have a survey done and either walk away, run away or pay the agreed price and sail away.
Or in some cases, the 'where is' implies getting it out of a field is your problem alone!


If you are not intending to DIY, then I would suggest buying something needing as little work as possible.
Even so, the time to buy a boat is Autumn, if you want to get a full season's use.
Getting work done by yards takes time as well as money.

I would advise against rushing into anything just to get sailing ASAP.
OTOH of course sellers should be aware that the clock is ticking, if they don't do a deal soon, buyers will be thinking about boats for 2022.

 

[TernVI]

The other point with your vendors stance might be that they won't take the boat off the market while you have a survey and ponder the results, as per the normal procedure.

 

[HappyHurley]

@TernVI

I don't mind some insubstantial DiY [stripping antifouling, cleaning the exhaust elbow], but I simply don't have the time, tools or expertise to be replacing standing rigging, or splitting the saildrive from the engine and replacing the gaiter]

It seems like I'm the first to have a 'serious' conversation with the broker, despite a number of viewings...

 

[pvb]

The owners have indicated they're willing to drop her to £8,000 below a tip-top sailaway example on an 'as-is, where is' [no survey] basis.

My gut instinct tells me it's a risky proposition.

The owners know it's dodgy. Walk away. Lots of great boats on the market.

 

[penfold]

What's dodgy about it? The keel has rusticles through neglect and for no obvious reason some berk has fitted those useless serrated lock washers to some of the keelbolts; there's nothing there of any significant concern. The deferred maintenance is a haggling issue, if the vendor won't move and there are other cheaper or better examples on the market then move on.

As you'll have seen from my other posts there is significant other work needed , heat exchanger/exhaust elbow, engine mounts, full engine service, new TBS deck panels, replacement standing & running rigging and stripping the hull & keel back, priming and antifouling...].

1. saildrive gaiter; unless it's visibly perished ignore it and go sailing. They don't fail, marina skips are well-stocked every year with tatty-looking but entirely seaworthy saildrive diaphragms.
2. Pull the rubber elbows off and look up the tubes; if there's a lot of fur, calcium deposit or other blockages then it needs cleaning, if not then refit the elbows and go sailing.
3. Buy a new elbow, get someone to fit it and go sailing; keep the old one and declag it, if it's not too rotten you can keep it as a spare.
4. You don't need new engine mounts.
5. An engine service is not significant work; go sailing.
6. You're mithering about a lumpy bit of non-Treadmaster on the deck; stop it and go sailing.
7. Get a rigger to look at your standing rigging by all means, the running rigging on the other hand; unless they're irredeemably destroyed by UV take the sheets home and put them through the washing machine to get rid of green algae.
8. Don't bother with that, by the time you get a yard to do that for you it will be June and half the season's gone; a couple of coats of AF slapped on and go sailing!