Keel/Rudder design

[Skylark]

This “mine is better than yours” attitude is rather churlish and I can only conclude that the author has a chip on his shoulder.

The oceans are full of many different boats with different design features, happily bobbing around with content owners.

At sea, I’m always happy to wave good wishes to fellow mariners, regardless of what’s keeping them afloat.

Some in their armchairs prefer disingenuous, disparaging comments. If it makes you happy.........?

 

[coopec]

Yes, like the vast majority of modern production yachts, it has a fin keel.

What make of yacht is yours : may I ask? (From the photo you posted I'd say it was a Bavaria?)

Keels Are Falling Off

Yes quite an alarming title but the subject has become serious to the point of World Sailing, the world governing body for the sport of sailing, to become seriously concerned and being on the verge of taking preventive actions.

The facts: surely everybody remembers the keel that some years ago fell off a Bavaria Match 42 and recently all know that an almost new 90ft Oyster lost the keel. Some know about two First 40.7 but less know about a Bavaria 390, a Jeanneau 37, a Vand den Stadt 45, a Sweden yacht 42, a Fast 42 a Maxi 110, a Max Fun 35 or more recently a Comet 45 and some days ago a Davidson 50.

Nor many know that since the mid 80’s more than 75 boats have lost the keel with the loss of 28 lives.

Keels Are Falling Off >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

 

[coopec]

This looks like the link I was looking for:

Beneteau rebuild turning into a nightmare - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

A young couple with no previous boat building experience apparently tended for a damaged Beneteau 49 and they are trying to re-attach the keel.

 

[Rappey]

What we don't hear about are boats that have had a poor joint between keel and grp so have had the keel dropped and maybe poor condition bolts replaced and relaunched.
It's one of those things where people don't have bolts inspected because keels falling off is not an everyday occurrence.
Each haul out I see boats on the hard with damp at the keel/hull joint.
Has water got to the keel bolts? Is there any galvanic corrosion ? Who really knows?

 

[Rappey]

Expedition Evans. Their positivity is amazing. Quite shocking that the matrix is only glued and not glassed to the hull and the box sections are effectively delaminating.

 

[pvb]

A young couple are trying to repair (I think) a Beneteau yacht that lost its' keel and everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau. They are posting their progress on YouTube and I've just been trying to find it but can't (there's that many accounts of keels falling off).

When I find the link I will post it

This looks like the link I was looking for:

Beneteau rebuild turning into a nightmare - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

A young couple with no previous boat building experience apparently tended for a damaged Beneteau 49 and they are trying to re-attach the keel.

If you've actually watched the videos of that boat, you'll find that (a) it didn't lose its keel as you claimed, and (b) poor workmanship by Beneteau wasn't alleged.

The couple bought the boat in a salvage auction. It had been grounded at some time and low-quality repairs had been made to the grid structure, leading to water leaks. The couple have been busy removing the low-quality repairs, back to the original fibreglass, so that they can do the repair properly.

Once again, you've got the story entirely wrong.

 

[pvb]

Expedition Evans. Their positivity is amazing. Quite shocking that the matrix is only glued and not glassed to the hull and the box sections are effectively delaminating.

That's not the case. The boat had been grounded and poorly repaired. They're removing the badly laminated repairs in readiness for re-laminating it properly.

 

[coopec]

What we don't hear about are boats that have had a poor joint between keel and grp so have had the keel dropped and maybe poor condition bolts replaced and relaunched.
It's one of those things where people don't have bolts inspected because keels falling off is not an everyday occurrence.
Each haul out I see boats on the hard with damp at the keel/hull joint.
Has water got to the keel bolts? Is there any galvanic corrosion ? Who really knows?

I agree with you. We had one of the local boats in a race (So it would be fin keeled) and it lost its' rudder. Sadly the Skipper and one crew died but the crew were saved.

How many yachts lose their keel and we never hear from them again?

 

[coopec]

If you've actually watched the videos of that boat, you'll find that (a) it didn't lose its keel as you claimed, and (b) poor workmanship by Beneteau wasn't alleged.

The couple bought the boat in a salvage auction. It had been grounded at some time and low-quality repairs had been made to the grid structure, leading to water leaks. The couple have been busy removing the low-quality repairs, back to the original fibreglass, so that they can do the repair properly.

Once again, you've got the story entirely wrong.

I haven't been following their story but my story wasn't entirely wrong!!

That's not the case. The boat had been grounded and poorly repaired. They're removing the badly laminated repairs in readiness for re-laminating it properly.

Well a lot of people in the know say it was the case!

 

[pvb]

What make of yacht is yours : may I ask? (From the photo you posted I'd say it was a Bavaria?)

Yes, a Bavaria, with a very sturdily attached keel.

Most yachts which lose their keels have been grounded at some time, leading to loss of integrity of the attachment. Keels very rarely just drop off without having suffered damage - the recent Oyster being an exception.

 

[Rappey]

That's not the case. The boat had been grounded and poorly repaired

Yes the boat has had an almighty hit (or more) on the keel leading to ripping the matrix from the hull and it has been previously bodged, but they cut a section of the matrix out and just using their hands managed to seperate the different layers. That's the scary part as it's part of a boats structure you can never inspect.
How many other matrix sections are weakened over time ?

 

[pvb]

I haven't been following their story but my story wasn't entirely wrong!!

Of course it was, you said the boat had lost its keel, it hadn't. In fact, if you bother to watch the videos, you'll see that it was actually quite a struggle to get the keel off the boat in the boatyard!

Well a lot of people in the know say it was the case!

Who?

 

[Bobc]

How about “bolox”

How about "complete bolox"

 

[pvb]

Yes the boat has had an almighty hit (or more) on the keel leading to ripping the matrix from the hull and it has been previously bodged, but they cut a section of the matrix out and just using their hands managed to seperate the different layers. That's the scary part as it's part of a boats structure you can never inspect.
How many other matrix sections are weakened over time ?

Grounding is the issue; it flexes the hull/matrix structure and can lead to parts of the matrix becoming detached. As you say, it's tricky to repair properly because it involves dismantling most of the interior of the boat. The labour involved is massive, which is why it's not an economic proposition if you have to pay someone to do it.

 

[coopec]

Yes, a Bavaria, with a very sturdily attached keel.

Most yachts which lose their keels have been grounded at some time, leading to loss of integrity of the attachment. Keels very rarely just drop off without having suffered damage - the recent Oyster being an exception.

I hope you are right! (Maybe yours is a different model and you don't have to worry?)

Bavaria Keel Problems | YBW Forum
forums.ybw.com › ... › Yachting Monthly's Scuttlebutt

Nov 17, 2017 — Is anyone aware of a 'common' issue with Bavaria keels and delamination? We have a shared 2005 Bavaria36 which suffered a grounding ...
Tell me the Truth about Baveria's | YBW Forum
22 Apr 2006
Bavaria lost keel again | YBW Forum
27 May 2012

 

[Bobc]

Don't feed the troll

 

[Skylark]

A young couple are trying to repair (I think) a Beneteau yacht that lost its' keel and everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau.

I think I'll send a copy of your post to Beneteau. Seems only fair to let them know how you've misrepresented an admitted grounding.

 

[pvb]

I hope you are right! (Maybe yours is a different model and you don't have to worry?)

Bavaria Keel Problems | YBW Forum
forums.ybw.com › ... › Yachting Monthly's Scuttlebutt

Nov 17, 2017 — Is anyone aware of a 'common' issue with Bavaria keels and delamination? We have a shared 2005 Bavaria36 which suffered a grounding ...
Tell me the Truth about Baveria's | YBW Forum
22 Apr 2006
Bavaria lost keel again | YBW Forum
27 May 2012

I don't have to worry at all. The only Bavaria yacht which had a fundamental design issue with the keel was the Match 42. One lost its keel; Bavaria re-worked all the other examples and they're still happily sailing around.

 

[Graham376]

Yes, a Bavaria, with a very sturdily attached keel.

Most yachts which lose their keels have been grounded at some time, leading to loss of integrity of the attachment. Keels very rarely just drop off without having suffered damage - the recent Oyster being an exception.

Older designs with longer lower aspect keels have a much greater mounting area than modern high aspect ones and are more likely to survive a grounding without damage. I suspect we will see increasing keel problems with modern "performance oriented" boats as they get older, having been battered around and grounded during extended cruising.

 

[Rappey]

Don't feed the troll

Coopec was just stating his and another high mileage sailors belief.
Encapsulated keels have many advantages over a bolt on.
I have a long keel. Never ever have to worry about keel bolts . Excellent directional stability. A very smooth ride into waves. Running over lobster posts and even a fishing net set across a creek is no drama as they just slide under the boat and pop out the stern. The rudder and propellor are fully protected.
For some blue water sailors the above reasons are important to minimise risk.
This surely is a big advantage over a awb ?
Yes a awb is still perfectly capable of blue water sailing and maybe faster performance with its own advantages.