Keel or "Through Hull" cooling?

[TNLI]

I have a morris 1500 diesel out of a J2 which is now 57 yrs old fitted with a bowman heat exchanger. My seawater pump has the same impellor it was launched with 39 years ago. In my 29 years of ownership I've had to rebuild the internals of the high rise mixer for thecost of £70 and replace one very cheap bowman end cap (£7.50) because I keep standing on it when the engine cover is removed. First time I've looked inside the heat exchanger and it's in superb condition.
I also changed the flexipipe between the engine and mixer which is 50mm corrugated stainless at £90.
I would say my total cost of £167.50 over 29 years shows cheapness and reliability .

Ah, just read a previous post, so you have the same BMC 1500D as me, although if it has a Bowman heat exchanger, it's not suitable for keel cooling, unless you have removed it, as the flow rate will be too restricted by the heat exchanger. A keel cooled engine just has a circulating pump and then a plate, pipes or the rather rare radiator. If that radiator is big enough, it might not need a fan. Your cost figures look almost the same as mine, and I also have a hot water outlet, but will probably leave it blanked off.
Normal coolant operating temperature for most diesels is 80C, with a maximum of around 100C to allow for the use of water, rather than a proper coolant mix that might not boil, (Depends on the pressure cap type), until about 115C.

If you have a bigger engine, this radiator might be good. A header tank is not essential, as the radiator has a cap. It's designed for a 7.5 litre V8 and is the same size as the one I intend fitting, but has 3 rather than 2 rows of alloy grill and is 3 times the cost. Inside in winter, BUT I should be able to fit it outside for the summer in my central rescue/fishing deck area.

3Row Radiator+Shroud+Fan For Ford F100 F150 F250 F350 Bronco Pickup V8 1966-1979 | eBay

 

[Rappey]

A vehicle has a big opening in front to allow the whole engine compartment to be air cooled with up to 70 mph wind and a powerful fan for when stationary.
Some modern diesels struggle to reach temp and have additional heating devices.
40 years ago I met a guy who put a rover v8 in a speedboat and had two huge radiators with 4 powerful fans to keep it cool.
My heat exchanger system has been pretty reliable for 39 years. How many dry exhausts would have I got through in that time if I was keel cooled ?

 

[TNLI]

A vehicle has a big opening in front to allow the whole engine compartment to be air cooled with up to 70 mph wind and a powerful fan for when stationary.
Some modern diesels struggle to reach temp and have additional heating devices.
40 years ago I met a guy who put a rover v8 in a speedboat and had two huge radiators with 4 powerful fans to keep it cool.
My heat exchanger system has been pretty reliable for 39 years. How many dry exhausts would have I got through in that time if I was keel cooled ?

Dry exhausts last forever as long as you buy a good stainless one. Lots of cars and trucks get stuck in traffic and the only ones with two radiators I can think of are army trucks, although they also have dual coolant circuits, so one bullet should not cause the engine to overheat.

I'm going to fit a small Wolverine 12V, (The same company do make 240V stick on panels), sump heater pad to reduce the cold start wear factors that often account for half of the main block wear during the winter.

 

[TNLI]

OK, just an update on keel cooling as although Mike Wills Marine are installing a BETA 30 in my 27ft offshore lifeboat, I will be doing most of the non heavy lifting engine installation, and will post some pictures when it ha been done. A

All offshore lifeboats in the UK and US have keel cooled diesels for the following reasons:
1/ ICE, as suck and spit heat exchanger or direct cooling does not work in any type of ice.
2/ MUD AND SAND, if you get stuck in mud or sand during a rescue, the engine will not overheat after trying to suck in whatever is on the bottom.
3/ MAINTENANCE, No intake water filter to check, no heat exchanger to clean, no sea water pump or belt to fail.
4/ RELIABILTY, See the above, keel cooled engines are more reliable.
5/ HEATING, most boats steel or alloy keel cooled boats use a cooling plate inside the hull, and the colant can be selected to a radiator with a fan to heat the cabin if required, although only boats operating in the artic or very cold countries have that option fitted.

Installing keel cooling is not an easy task, as the exhaust system must be a well designed all stainless dry one with a flexible pipe and a SILENCER, plus protection lagging where required. Keel cooling can do done on any boat where there is room for a cooling tank, which in the case of a 30hp Beta should be about 1 square meter inside the alloy hull, or outside if the boat has a plastic hull. Some canal boats used long pipes outside, and a few boats with accesible lead ballast inside, used a series of stainless pipes zig zagging inside the lead ballast. That was only done during initial build, and not practical after completion.

So, if you want to have a reliable cooling system, it has to be keel cooling, and if you want to design, build or modify an existing boat, take a good look at the lifeboat design and certification requirements, as they list a number of real good idea that I'm doing my best to include in my hull up project build. A few of the more interesting ones:

1/ Full self righting within set time limits.

2/ Unsinkable, so my boat has 2 main watertight bulkheads and 2 side compartments that are for floatation devices in the form of old lifejackets, and bags of 4min quick cooking pasta and instant noodeles, as I like pasta and they don't burn!

3/ 2 fuel tanks with 2 aux primary fuel filters feeding a single engine. Most boaters with 2 tanks just have one filter units, which is another single point failre.

4/ 2 engines, a Beta 30 and a 5kW 48V DC motor, BUT TNLB Elsie May also has a a hinged A frame sailing rig that can be easily bolted on or raised by one person.

Alas safety does not sell, so the current design and build standards for yachts and motor boats are very poor, which is why we get so many incidents and accidents each year. Most governments just agree to what their own private marine industry recommends. The Titanic was fully approved and certified !!

 

[Daydream believer]

What happened to Brent Swain? Has he turned his toes up, gone sailing & never arrived, or just been plain banned from the forum? Kind of miss his rants & the couple of forumites who idolise his trusty rusty floating skips with the "coded" welds

 

[Pete7]

What happened to Brent Swain? Has he turned his toes up, gone sailing & never arrived, or just been plain banned from the forum? Kind of miss his rants & the couple of forumites who idolise his trusty rusty floating skips with the "coded" welds

Managed to get himself banned from several forums, not sure about YBW.
Meanwhile, I stumbled across a series of YT videos were he gives his reasoning for the origami design:

 

[penfold]

Glad to see the mania for Herreshoff anchors hasn't entirely displaced the mania for keel cooling.

 

[TNLI]

SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC

Managed to get himself banned from several forums, not sure about YBW.
Meanwhile, I stumbled across a series of YT videos were he gives his reasoning for the origami design:

Very interesting, and as a lunatic that did a singlehanded circumnavigation in a steel Van Der Stadt 34, (Professional hull, DIY the rest), I really like the method of construction and the actual yacht. When I finished my first trip around, I concluded that bilge keelers or beachable boats are far safer and more versatile than more normal designs. If you get involved in some serious exploration of the Pacific Islands or other areas where running around will be almost inevitable, or intentional beaching because of adverse conditions in an anchorage might be required, it won't be long before you figure out a steel hull with twin keels or side rub rails with a central beam, (30 degree angle of dangle max), are the way to go.

If I survive testing my present lifeboat motor sailor, I will start building a second copy with a 4mm steel hull, 2 stainless, (302 or 4), cross beams and a wood topsides with factory glass panels over all of the external areas. The big issue with steel boats is how you deal with corrosion inside the area below the waterline, the bilges in particular. If you do not have full acess to all the rust prone areas to effect a real good repair or coating, you will eventually learn the hard way about steel hull life expectancy. If the intial treatment of all areas is done to a high standard, and the design allows access to all critical areas for a good annual inspection and repainting or coating of any rusty areas, a steel boat can last far longer than a plastic one. I sold Dicha cos of terminal corrosion in the bilges, gas locker bottom and anchor locker bottom and sides. The initial expoxy coating done well before I bought her was too thin, and some chump did not line the bottom of the lockers.

Getting banned from YBW is not an issue, as it has far too many unlabelled off topic and too much general ranting, with assorted insults posted to be of use for research. The moderation is very slack and often biased by those that think that modern systems and parts are always better than the classics. Moderators should not get involved in any particular thread in terms of posting replies or making inaccurate technical comments. I was stunned when I got over a dozen ranting replies to a comment that said Chinese stainless parts are not annealed, until I posted several links to an Italian company that describes how it anneals stainless before, work hardening and Nitride treatment.
I do like alloy boats, so plan to keep my present test boat, as it will be faster under sail, but at the end of the day, Steel is tougher, so the final production run will have a steel hull, and the 2 beams will need to be stainless due to inspection difficulty.

SV Penope's You tub clips and his final comment about the genuine unworn steel CQR says it all, "It's still the most popular anchor in the Pacific North West, and 4000 boaters can't be wrong". His test results stunned me, as I did not know how good it was in comparison with the Lewmar Delta. Steve has also recognised the importance of how strong an anchor is, but alas he does not have the gear to test the shanks at present. It will be interesting to see which unknown anchor has the real low scores.
If I had the dosh and could find a real bronze Herreshoff, it would be intersesting to see how much better than a copy or early version it is in mud and sand. Finally Steve of SV Penope fame has also made more negative comments about mud fouling stopping a Rocna design resetting, (The Rocna has already been reported for failing in 180 degree veer test and is one of the most dangerous main anchors to use in bad conditions). I think he said a Manson had bent during a test, but might be wrong so see the cip).

CQR vs. Delta. Anchor Test Video # 124 - YouTube

Cheers to all the classic yacht and steel boat owners, Brain Swain in particular!

 

[vyv_cox]

I was stunned when I got over a dozen ranting replies to a comment that said Chinese stainless parts are not annealed, until I posted several links to an Italian company that describes how it anneals stainless before, work hardening and Nitride treatment.

Now you are simply twisting reality. I read through the whole of that massive thread to check and found:

First, no rant. I never do ranting.
Second, Mine was the only comment on the subject.
Third, How does the annealing or non-annealing of Chinese stainless parts relate to an Italian manufacturer of what are clearly high tech and expensive components?

What I said was that it is normally a waste of money to heat treat 300 series stainless steel as they cannot be strengthened by this means. Your Italian manufacturer is clearly annealing to remove any prior deformation effects. I doubt very much whether any manufacturer of 300 series bolts, whether Chinese or any other nationality, carries out annealing as standard.

 

[TNLI]

OFF TOPIC

Where have I said in my post that you were ranting, it was all the other posters that thought your comment significant that kept on posting mostly daft comments.

The Chinese parts are machined to a poor standard, and some of their stainless is not what they say it is, and in most cases it is not treated, apart from polishing. I only posted the Italian company links as they were the first one I found, but there are quite a number of similar company producing high grade stainless parts for the marine industry. It has nothing at all to do with strength, it's mostly done the get rid of flaws that would seriously reduce the fatigue life, although some flaws result in direct shear failures. Those bad or scam copies of clevis pins, cotter pins and spreader or mast head nuts and bolts are to be found all over the world and are often the cause of failures. So I tend to recommend anyone buying stainless parts thinks twice about the need to use stainless rather than galvanised steel, as it is very difficult to trace the supplier and confirm the standard of the stainless. The marks on the parts and all the paperwork are easily forged.

The best way of avoiding a premature shear or fatigue failure if you have to use stainless for a critical part, is to buy the most expensive version direct from the manufacturer, failing that, some of the major rigging companies, or West Marine should be good in not selling you a copy.

BACK ON TOPIC
Still trying to figure out if J.M.REINECK & SONS who were making a better late model bronze 3 piece Herreshoff to order, is still making them, as their web site does not list it.
Not found a real one for sale yet, just gold painted steel versions, or brass look alike scams.

I tried to find what Steve of SV Penope says was the unknown but common anchor. I think it might be a Danforth, but the question is, which one. Some copies are apparently no good in holding terms. Like the CQR and Bruce, there are an incredible number of copies around, mostly in steel. He has tested what looked like a Luke storm anchor when he tested the fishermans anchors, but that anchor is very different in shape terms.

I will take another look at the Spade and Fortress anchors used by the RNLI and USCG, cos there are a number of different versions of both, and the pictures of the shank seem to show it has a thicker cross section than the ones in their web site. In other words the version they have might be like the USCG anchors, and a special order not available to the public.
It's a pity the manufaturers don't list all the strength data for the anchors, and that needs to be both in the present sideways 90 degree force, AND a direct upwards pull, as those do happen when an anchor gets stuck in the rocks. It's the upwards pull that can break the nuts off the end of kit built anchors bolts !!

Looks like a very small company:
JM Reineck & Son: Contact Details and Business Profile (rocketreach.co)

 

[MisterBaxter]

I used to own a steel yacht with an air-cooled Lister engine and a dry exhaust. It sounded like an elderly tractor but there was very little to go wrong. The dry exhaust showed no signs of needing maintenance during my ownership, and any future maintenance would have been simple and cheap. The set-up wouldn't appeal to most people but the simplicity has something to be said for it.
I briefly entertained a fantasy about building a steel yacht last year, or rather having a hull built and fitting it out myself. It seemed to me that a skin cooling tank, as used in narrowboats, would have worked well, with a bit of care over the details. But I can't see the point of it in a boat with hull that isn't made of metal.

 

[ean_p]

OFF TOPIC


BACK ON TOPIC
Still trying to figure out if J.M.REINECK & SONS who were making a better late model bronze 3 piece Herreshoff to order, is still making them, as their web site does not list it.
Not found a real one for sale yet, just gold painted steel versions, or brass look alike scams.

JM Reineck & Son: Contact Details and Business Profile (rocketreach.co)

They're on page 3 of the 12 page 'products' pdf found on the website
approx $1000 for a 17lb'er