KAD44 conversion to mechanical

[petem]

'Electrotwackery works fine if its kept cool , and as much as possible is mounted remotely in a water proof box well ventilated'
on a KAD44 it is mounted to the side of the block, so suffering long term wear due to vibration from the engine too

Where are the ECU's on your outboards then Simon?

 

[MapisM]

Yes that’s my point

Was it?
You said "Electrotwackery works fine if its kept cool , and as much as possible is mounted remotely in a water proof box well ventilated".
I didn't read that as one meter far from the block and inside the very same small place, possibly reaching 60+ degrees at times...

Anyway, I didn't mean to dismiss the concept of real remote installation, which makes good sense.
All I said is that it's extremely hard to find anything like that, in pleasure boats.
Coming to think of it, I've only seen something like that in a large trawler, with a lazarette adjacent but completely separated from the e/r by water+fireproof bulkead and door.

 

[Mr Googler]

Other differences include a thicker walled block on the 44 and 300 and a modified cooling system

So better then……gotcha ??

 

[Portofino]

Porto, how do you know that your ECU's aren't potted? Do you have photos?

Also, what evidence do you have that potting is the cause of any failures?

Made by Boning
MAN ENGINES SOLUTIONS | Boening Ship Automation
Note the 2045 support date as well .^^^

I ve seen inside the techs lap top plugs in when they open the box .Full of green “ plug n play , click n go boards “ as per the link ^^ .


I have no evidence that potting causes issues never said that .You missed my point .I was saying the potting renders repairs , indeed cheaper fixes almost impossible.Making them throw away parts .
The potting is to mitigate VP Electrotwackery being mounted directly on the motors .Heat soak as I have explained or vibration or water spray ( busted pipes / strainer lids ) or plan salt air corrosion mentioned by Julian .Choose your poison (s) .

It just renders quick get you going repairs, or any repairs effectively out of the equation.
Thats fine if …..
1- The parts are available.
2- The parts are affordable
3- The parts are durable .
Reality is none of the above .

 

[simonfraser]

Where are the ECU's on your outboards then Simon?

on the outboard, cooler there, easily accessible, and guess what replacements are available

Why Diesel Engine Vibrates More? – McNally Institute

 

[petem]

on the outboard, cooler there, easily accessible, and guess what replacements are available

Why Diesel Engine Vibrates More? – McNally Institute

Well, KAD44 ECU's are available now,. just like I predicted!

And your ECU will still be bolted to the engine (but probably not benefitting from being fixed to the fuel pump which would cool it down)!

And you don't need to post a link to convince me that petrol engines are smoother than diesels

 

[petem]

Made by Boning
MAN ENGINES SOLUTIONS | Boening Ship Automation
Note the 2045 support date as well .^^^

I ve seen inside the techs lap top plugs in when they open the box .Full of green “ plug n play , click n go boards “ as per the link ^^ .
View attachment 135522

I have no evidence that potting causes issues never said that .You missed my point .I was saying the potting renders repairs , indeed cheaper fixes almost impossible.Making them throw away parts .
The potting is to mitigate VP Electrotwackery being mounted directly on the motors .Heat soak as I have explained or vibration or water spray ( busted pipes / strainer lids ) or plan salt air corrosion mentioned by Julian .Choose your poison (s) .

It just renders quick get you going repairs, or any repairs effectively out of the equation.
Thats fine if …..
1- The parts are available.
2- The parts are affordable
3- The parts are durable .
Reality is none of the above .

I can't see your panel on the price list. Can you show me where it is?

Looks like they have very low stocks of quite a lot of parts, with some not being available until the end of July.

Also, there's quite a lot of parts where production is on demand. What happens if they can't get chips (which is the issue that VP encountered)?

 

[Portofino]

I can't see your panel on the price list. Can you show me where it is?

Looks like they have very low stocks of quite a lot of parts, with some not being available until the end of July.

Also, there's quite a lot of parts where production is on demand. What happens if they can't get chips (which is the issue that VP encountered)?

Its an American suppliers site .HQ in Germany over nights parts if in the EU .Says “ updated daily ring to check “

Not sure where you are going Pete ?

There’s no electrotwackery show stoppers or parts famine with MAN - Boning ( the electrotwackery supplier ) infact they are bragging support to 2045

The “ motherboards “ for yachts . Those green boards no potting needed just click n to replace .There’s one inside that ER black box iirc ?

Aside @ MapishM point of remote the head unit on the dash is not just a thin 1 inch screen ( see the images ) it too has boards or my words electrotwackery .Also not shown more ECU boxes for the engines under the dash , unbiblical connected to the ER motherboard box and the MMDS box .You just see the screen the flat bit the top surface of a brick shaped thing .
So a bit of both some electrotwackery is actually truly remote . Under dash .Which on my boat is accessed behind a galley cupboard .They are all in there .About the size of a biscuit tin .This is as well as the screens .
God knows what electrotwackery goes on in there , but what ever it is it’s not in the ER .



Lets put it this way if VP asked Boning to do the “electrotwackery “ the VP owners would have more a reliable/ durable set up .
Certainly nothing potted up engine mounted .

Threads on VP ECU failures and parts availability would be as common as ECU failure in MAN s / MTU et al .

 

[petem]

Did you go to the end of the Spares List / Prices where it shows qty in stock and date of next production? It has parts there for Riva and Ferretti but your panel isn't listed. So this doesn't seem to be a US thing as you claim.

Also, it says "we are planning to ensure the availability of spare parts until at least 2045". Surely I don't need to explain to you that there's a massive difference between "we are planning" and actually being able to meet that promise! Volvo were planning to provide continuous stock of ECU's but Covid caused interruptions.

 

[Portofino]

Did you go to the end of the Spares List / Prices where it shows qty in stock and date of next production? It has parts there for Riva and Ferretti but your panel isn't listed. So this doesn't seem to be a US thing as you claim.

Also, it says "we are planning to ensure the availability of spare parts until at least 2045". Surely I don't need to explain to you that there's a massive difference between "we are planning" and actually being able to meet that promise! Volvo were planning to provide continuous stock of ECU's but Covid caused interruptions.

It’s ex Boca / Florida , as I said one boning service centre - today’s parts availability for that area .
Boning do electrotwackery engine management stuff for many manufacturers not just MAN .

Sailent point they don’t engine mount there stuff .
You are advocating removal of the VP electrotwackery Pete , let’s not loose sight on the thread title .

No ones ever suggest go backwards and de electrotwackery a Boning supported marine engine for fear of forward market parts support / supply .

The rest is at HQ in Germany and of course at other distributors world wide .

But typically for all the Boning electrotwackery boats in FL , it’s just a phone call plug n play job .Should something get damaged or knacker .As I said pity VP did not offload this as well to Boning .

If FL stockist have a 1/2 brained stock inventory guy then perhaps the low number items are low volume as opposed to low stock levels .
You know balance of tying up cash and keeping punters supplied on demand .
You think they only have 1 or 2 items because theres a production issue like VP s ECU s ?It might be the right number for the local demand .
I know a few guys from other forums who re new the screens and update the helm to glass screens .Sure mega bucks but it’s all doable and quite popular in the states .

I thought from the 72/74 ECU debacle thread at one point VP ceased commissioning the supplier of that ECU and stocks basically ran out of stock leaving owners high n dry .Then they decided to restart , or ask the suppliers to re start production in the middle of the covid shutdown/ global lack of chip problems.

Not exactly for the current owners confidence boosting from the Swedes .What ever next ?

 

[petem]

Nice try, but that's the international parts inventory, not the American one. Compare these two documents and you'll see that they are identical...

https://www.boening.com/download/CatalogUSSparepartPrice.pdf
https://www.boening.com/download/KatalogErsatzteilpreise.pdf

"I thought from the 72/74 ECU debacle thread at one point VP ceased commissioning the supplier of that ECU and stocks basically ran out of stock leaving owners high n dry .Then they decided to restart , or ask the suppliers to re start production in the middle of the covid shutdown/ global lack of chip problems."

Nope, it was always their intention to re-stock.

Anyhow, it was you who started banging on about electronics!

 

[Portofino]

Nice try, but that's the international parts inventory, not the American one. Compare these two documents and you'll see that they are identical...

https://www.boening.com/download/CatalogUSSparepartPrice.pdf
https://www.boening.com/download/KatalogErsatzteilpreise.pdf

"I thought from the 72/74 ECU debacle thread at one point VP ceased commissioning the supplier of that ECU and stocks basically ran out of stock leaving owners high n dry .Then they decided to restart , or ask the suppliers to re start production in the middle of the covid shutdown/ global lack of chip problems."

Nope, it was always their intention to re-stock.

Anyhow, it was you who started banging on about electronics!

Not banging on .You wanted the evidence that Boning don’t pot there ECUs “ prove it “

Yes you might be right re the list(s) .So what ?
Nice to see 37 mother boards , gathering dust somewhere.That’s the VP ECU equivalent in the black box I posted a pic .
Thx mate very reassuring , should one ever go bang . Plug and play no potting compound .

But you are where you are with VP s Engine mounted ECU covered in potting stuff with constant reliability issues coupled with flaky parts availability.
Not sure for the reasons I have said throwing it all out and retro fitting none reliant on electrotwackery is the best way Fwds .
If what you infer there’s no supply issues , VP have fixed it .

 

[petem]

Porto, does your injection pump have an electronic governor?

 

[Portofino]

Porto, does your injection pump have an electronic governor?

It’s one of theses


There’s a sensor on injector no 1 cylinder .See the wire going to it below(near the header tank end )


Below side view, the pump is visible below the filters .


Electrotwackery is stored in that remote box below and connected by those chunky umbilicals .



The potentiometer sat on top turns the simple Morse cable movements into electronic signals for the box re the throttles.

Gear box ( twin discs ) are simple morse cable s too .


Have to say I do prefer the clicketry / clack of the cable NONE EDC morse controls .
Having come from a EDC electrotwackery set up from VP set up I am not sure what was actually achieved going EDC by VP ??

Where are you going with this line of question btw ?

 

[MapisM]

Having come from a EDC electrotwackery set up from VP set up I am not sure what was actually achieved going EDC by VP ??

Good point, but I always wondered the same about the (very few, actually) MAN EDC engines like yours.

BTW, which of the above do you actually have? There are two different versions, in the pics you posted.
Just curious.

 

[Portofino]

Good point, but I always wondered the same about the (very few, actually) MAN EDC engines like yours.

BTW, which of the above do you actually have? There are two different versions, in the pics you posted.
Just curious.

Based on the old D28 series which I think yours are as the 28 refers to the modular 128 mm dia pistons ? .
The inline 6 hovered for leisure use around 550-600 Hp with a 2 valve head in the late 90s .Obviously a lot less Hp for road / truck versions and commercial marine heavy duty cycle boats .

Then they quatro valved it for the leisure you know keeping up in the Hp wars .The commercials down to 350 (same block ) we’re still 2 valve .

Mine has the Gold valve covers circa 2003 . 700 Hp , 2876 le 401 s .None CR .Just a short window of manufacturing yes.

They shortly did around 2005 a 730 hp , then 800 and now I think 900 for the I6 . I think all CR
I think the current800 and 900 are a new completely different block block .

 

[Portofino]

Here’s a vid of using Morse controls .
You need to turn up the vol to hear them .

I really don’t get why you would want a quicker way to go from N to what ever in this case mostly F , just a click up then back to N .
To turn it just use one and hold it for a few secs .

No bow thruster doing the 90 degree turn leaving the berth or next turn leaving the aisle .
Sorry to disappoint techi IPS lovers as well .

 

[petem]

Based on the old D28 series which I think yours are as the 28 refers to the modular 128 mm dia pistons ? .
The inline 6 hovered for leisure use around 550-600 Hp with a 2 valve head in the late 90s .Obviously a lot less Hp for road / truck versions and commercial marine heavy duty cycle boats .View attachment 135713

Then they quatro valved it for the leisure you know keeping up in the Hp wars .The commercials down to 350 (same block ) we’re still 2 valve .

Mine has the Gold valve covers circa 2003 . 700 Hp , 2876 le 401 s .None CR .Just a short window of manufacturing yes.

They shortly did around 2005 a 730 hp , then 800 and now I think 900 for the I6 . I think all CR
I think the current800 and 900 are a new completely different block block .

What did they achieve by going EDC?

 

[MapisM]

Based on the old D28 series which I think yours are as the 28 refers to the modular 128 mm dia pistons ?
The inline 6 hovered for leisure use around 550-600 Hp with a 2 valve head in the late 90s.
Obviously a lot less Hp for road / truck versions and commercial marine heavy duty cycle boats.
Then they quatro valved it for the leisure you know keeping up in the Hp wars . The commercials down to 350 (same block ) we’re still 2 valve .
Mine has the Gold valve covers circa 2003 . 700 Hp , 2876 le 401 s .None CR .Just a short window of manufacturing yes.
They shortly did around 2005 a 730 hp , then 800 and now I think 900 for the I6. I think all CR
I think the current800 and 900 are a new completely different block block.

Yep, I'm well aware of the MAN engines evolution.
BTW, the highest power to which they pushed the inline 6 is 850, not 900. And the very first 730hp was still EDC (LE405, IIRC), afterwards converted to CR.
To my knowledge, the new block (albeit not really as new as they pretend it is: essentially, they redesigned the basement and crankshaft to handle a longer stroke) only affected the V8 and V12 engines, eventually squeezing 1300 and 2000 hp respectively out of them.
The only significant redesign of your inline 6 block happened many years ago, when the designation changed from D2866 to D2876, which (confusingly) meant a longer stroke, from 155 to 166mm.
I don't think they made any major changes to the inline 6 block after that.
In fact, the power increase that over time they achieved out of it, with CR and 4 valves, was a relatively sedate 16% (730 to 850), vs. 60%+ of the V8 and V12.
Apropos of 4 valves, actually they were progressively adopted in ALL engines, including the derated commercial ones, whose main difference is that they spin at either 2100 or 1800, for medium or heavy duty respectively. I believe that the widespread 4 valves adoption was in fact triggered also by the quest for lower emissions, not just higher power.

All that said, actually I was aware that you've got the LE401 EDC.
Hence my (admittedly a bit ironic...) comment about MAN not being very different from VP, when it comes to early EDC implementations.
When I asked "which of the above", it was because one of the inline 6 engine pics that you previously posted showed a very rare setup, which I knew was available from MAN as an option, but I never saw in any boat: the side mounted coolant surge tank.
In fact, I see now from your last e/r pic that you have the much more common front mounted tank instead, so by posting that you did answer my question.
Talk about pics worth a thousand words...!

 

[MapisM]

I really don’t get why you would want a quicker way to go from N to what ever in this case mostly F, just a click up then back to N.

Hang on, PF: in modern engines, the fully electronic levers are NOT meant to be faster.
Weird as it may sound, if anything, they are meant to be slower!

In your boat (as well as in mine), you'd better never try a crash stop maneuver, moving in one quick movement the levers from WOT ahead to WOT reverse.
In fact, the only result you'd achieve is that the g/boxes would explode, because not only the fwd disengagement, but also the rev engagement would take place almost instantaneously, well before the engine has slowed down to idle RPM.
Doing the same with modern electronic engines is instead part of the normal seatrial routine, because the much more clever electrotwackery engages/disengages gears depending also on what the engine is doing, not just based on the levers input!

Not that this is a feature I'm missing, mind.
I'm more than happy to trade the lack of this "protected" operation for the simplicity and reliability of not having any electrotwackery, no matter how clever.
But it's only fair to give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

PS: I meant to ask, but I forgot.
What's the Dutch flagged vessel right in front of you from about 1:20 onward?
She looks like a proper small ship!