Junk Rig - What do you think?

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JerseyDevil

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I was reading in PBO July edition for next month which came out this month...or possibly last month ( :p ) about the Junk rigs. Now I've always loved the look of this sail, no idea why, just found it quite appealing.

However, there is no point having form over function so what do you feel are the advantages and disadvantages of a Junk setup? Although the article gave a little information, it was not very indepth as to the pros and cons.

Reason we ask is that we might be going for a boat which is almost finished but needs new sails, mast etc (a family friends ongoing project that he does not have the time to finish) so thought it could be an opportunity to go with the Junk setup :)

Cheers
 
From having owned a wee one for several years..

I would definitely not consider just plonking a new junk rig onto an unknown hull. The chances of you getting it right and even putting the mast in the right place are, well, how would you know? To move the mast if unsatisfactorily located , would be a big, structural pain-in-the-bum of a job. And to sail well on all points it is quite important, as is in fact the shape of the hull-Short and fat, you ain't going to go to windward especially with any sort of sea running..

For what it is worth, mine was on a Corribee which balanced beautifully but is a slim, canoe like, undistorted hullshape. Once you ease the sheets, the boat simply flew, vice free! However,upwind in the English Channel=Not good !

I would say go road test one before taking it any further.

I am desisting from extolling the rigs many advantages ( For what I did with mine it was absolutely the bees knees but what do you intend to do with your finished boat?), because mistakes can be expensive, so go try one or two next, please.
 
Read Annie Hill's Cruising on a small income. Fun read and quite a lot on their junk rigged boats and reasons for choosing. The definative read is Hasler/Mcleod's (sp) Junk Rig book, enough to design the rig for your boat. Easy to reef and control. Low stress on the fabric. Quite a bit of string. Popular with some cruising folk and singlehanders. Doesn't point as high as bermudan, but that only matters if you race or enjoy the pounding. I went through the whole process for a 24fter I inheirited, but finally decided it wasn't the boat I wanted (hull, not the rig)

Sunbird Yachts supply ally masts along with design advice. Worth contacting them.
A

Sorry, tried to get Sunbird..just sales stuff. But google Junk Rig Association. Loads there.
 
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Junk Rig experiences

I rigged a 30 footer with a 500 sq ft junk sail.

The sail itself was professionally made and we fitted it with aluminium hinged battens as per the latest (Ten years ago) thinking.

As to performance, it was really excellent off the wind, not so good closer hauled but very simple to control once up. It was, however, a big lump of canvas, timber and metal to raise to hoist in anything like a sea.

Sadly our experience of junk was spoiled by having taken supposedly expert advice to adopt the system of fanned battens (as opposed to traditional parallel ones). This meant that it didn't easily reef which is one of the main benefits of the junk rig.

Before spending any money, get to read a copy of "Practical Junk Rig" by Hassler and McCloud. It is excellent and explains everything to you. My local library ordered one in for me.

Be very wary of experts, some of whom base their knowledge on rigging a their mirror dinghy with groundsheet sailcloth then assume it will work equally well on a larger boat.

Be aware that it will always be a niche market when you come to sell and, whatever the merits of a properly set up junk rig, your resale value will be adjusted accordingly.
 
Gubbo,
Sound like their resale is already compromised as it is a project home build. Adding a cost effective junk rig probably won't make it any worse. And might give them years of fun. I costed the rig, and it (home made) was loads cheaper than a bermudan set up. Ash batterns, flat cut sail, so easy to home sew. No standing rigging. As for mast position etc. the Hasler Mcleod book has enough info to do that.
A
 
Cheers for the responses.

The boat is an Etap 22, I've seen a few with junk rigs so will try and get in touch with the owners and see if I can get a trip out with them / see their setups.

Primarily, our usage will be sailing in the Solent and eventually (once we have the experience and confidence) longer trips to France, Spain etc.

We have no intentions of racing, it'll be purely for the enjoyment and freedom of been at sea.


Blueboatman: Is your boat "Mingming" ? Just that I noticed some videos on youtube and that is a Coribee with a junk setup :)
 
JerseyDevil, I sail a junkrig Corribee and am thoroughly enjoying the rig. As anyone will tell you, it takes a bit of finessing upwind, but off the wind it is a hoot.
I'll PM you with some more information that may be interesting.
 
Dragonfly

Bajansailor said:
Parsifal, could you perhaps post the photos of Dragonfly on here please?
Click to expand...

Here you are. Sorry for the delay, I thought it would be polite to ask her owner's permission first but I have been unable to contact him. However, I'm sure he won't mind people admiring his very handy boat.
 
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Nice photos.
One handy feature of junkrig worth mentioning is that you don't need to go head-to-wind to hoist or drop the sails, so long as the sails can weathercock. No need then for a quick detour to drop the jib!
 
Thank you Parsifal for posting pictures of my boat Dragonfly. I feel the time has come to answer the original question in full. I am in a 20/20 situation. - first twenty years of my sailing in bermudan and last twenty in junk. I first became interested in the rig when trading in trampers on the Yangtze and South China Seas in the 70's. Those days saw many junk rigs and the rivers were like busy roads. I used to watch them sail alongside and we would load them after which another opportunity to observe preparation. since then I have owned five junk rigged vessels and logged over fifteen hundred sails.

The responses to your first very kind earlier posting about my boat ("ideal boat for singlehanding") need addressing next. While I am sure they come from experienced seamen, I feel these sources are theorising. Your comment that it is an ideal rig for singlehanders is interesting. Blondie Hasler himself promoted it as an ideal rig for families. Then came the comment that a well set up bermudan boat could do the same. This is just not true. Imagine being able to drop sail in fractions of one second - a roller jib/main takes far too long. Imagine handling the halyard like an accelerator - heaving a panel up and down in a jiffy. Imagine sail handling whatevever the boats attitude to the wind. Imagine being able to let the sail out well for'd of the mast. Imagine being able to let the sail do nothing for extended periods - no flapping....I could go on! Then the unkindest comment - that lots of short tacking implies that the boat does not go well to windward. Well the channel was narrow,water shallow so centreboard up and the importance of keeping her full in close quarters situation - should these not be factored into the argument? As for the comment about not liking a mast without stays well the sail is a wing and the mast is a main spar just like an aeroplane. I do not think you would like to look out of you plane window and see wires supporting the wing. We have moved on.

In our little muddy creek there are no less than eight junk rigs:

1. 82 year old man with plastic knees - ease of handling
2. Family man - bermudan is too hard work. Wife does not like to see him stressed.
3. Fisheman - cheap way of getting to fishing grounds and shrouds of old bermudan rig were causing water to leak into his plywood decks.
4.Boy - sailing his own junk rig yacht to IOW since he was 12. Mother insisted it was junk rig.
5.Newcomer - read/researched avidly beforehand but was put off buying a junk rig at a club bar. He has one now and travels widely in only his third year of sailing.
6.Two observers - liked what they saw - other junk rigs performing in the creek.
8. Me - I like to sail. Thrilled by not using engine. Thrilled by the seemingly endless possibilities for manoeuvering. Thrilled by researching and applying the old methods of sailing.

Now - do junk rigs sail to windward? A rig dammed by a history of being installed on barges and by not having camber. Today is different. Many ways of getting camber. I have joints. An equivalent bermudan boat with new sails will beat me to windward in force two to force five. I am faster in light airs as my sails are held out by the battens which will create a gravity induced camber if I sit on one side. For beating off a lee shore in a gale the junk rig could save your life - a perfect setting small sail. I can beat an equivalent boat with old sails to windward. take your pick but bear in mind a junk sail never blows out and sets perfectly until it rots. How important is your pocket?

I could go on and on - fantastic visibility, no noise etc etc. One final point however is that women love it right from the start - why is this?
 
JunkRig

To me sailing is really all about working to windward. Any boat can go well off the wind. I put a high priority on good windward performance in a range of wind strengths.
I may be biased because I don't usually carry a motor. or I don't carry a motor because it goes well to windward. (A 21ft light weight trailer sailer).
Anyway I love a modern fractional rig with effective reefing of the main and a range of hank on jibs.
However as said your best bet is to copy the Etap 22s that have been factory built. If only fo resale value. good luck olewill
 
Yes I agree - sailing is all about making to windward - putting some junk rig in a lightweight trailer sailer is like putting a landrover engine in a formula one chassis.(However a surprising number of super fast tikki cats have junk rigs). For a typical family cruising boat a junk rig is often far more suitable for making to windward. For short tacking there is no heaving of sheets- there is no delay is establisheing a set sail. As explained in my earlier post it is faster in light and strong winds and flukey winds where frequent reefing is necessary. It is faster than bermudan boats with old sails. Ironically many bermudan boats motor sail to windward. Junk rigs are more suitable for this also as sails never flap. I am referring to like for like boats and modern junk sail designs here however.

I agree - nothing beats a hard beat to windward in a perfectly set up fractionally rigged folkboat which in the right conditions will thrash a junk rig - and most other types. I seize any opportunity to sail like this as junk rigs a so boring - there is no sensation of speed - no taught lines, grinding winches or rapid heels. The log and the fact that other boats are not so fast are the only clues. However it is now dark and that hanked on foresail looks a bit stressed....
 
JerseyDevil said:
I was reading in PBO July edition for next month which came out this month...or possibly last month ( :p ) about the Junk rigs. Now I've always loved the look of this sail, no idea why, just found it quite appealing.

However, there is no point having form over function so what do you feel are the advantages and disadvantages of a Junk setup? Although the article gave a little information, it was not very indepth as to the pros and cons.

Reason we ask is that we might be going for a boat which is almost finished but needs new sails, mast etc (a family friends ongoing project that he does not have the time to finish) so thought it could be an opportunity to go with the Junk setup :)

Cheers
Click to expand...

Have a practice on this, seems cheap enough!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Newbridge-Nav...ng_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item1c132db017
 
Stavanger, Fri

Hello there
Being a new member to this YBW forum, I have just browsed through this thread. Since the dominating number of British junks still sails with flat sails, their performance to windward will never shine whatever boat is put under the rig. This will tend to confirm the already not-so-good reputation of the junk rig (JR) when it comes to performance

In 1990 I installed the first flat McLeod style junk sail on my 23ft ‘Malena’. Handling-wise the sail performed perfectly well. However, I soon found the rig disappointing to windward with a tacking angle between 100° and 110°, and this despite having given the boat a healthy sail area. To cut a long story short, since 1994 I have used junk sails with cambered panels in them between straight battens. The camber has been achieved by cutting each batten panel to a barrel shape, with the rounding along the battens. This way I get about 8% camber/chord.

In my town, Stavanger, there are now 5 JR boats, ranging from 18’ to 49’, all with cambered panel sails. They are all performing well and they certainly suffer no reputation of being slow. My own present boat, the 29ft ‘Johanna’ generally tacks through 90 – 95° for best VMG and we have given many Bermudan-rigged boats stiff competition.

As for crew requirements I use to say (and I mean it):

I don’t need a crew, but I can always use some company.

Conclusion:
To improve the reputation of the JR in British waters, their owners have to speed up the process of improving their sails from flat to cambered (either with jointed battens or (better) with cambered panels) sails. Unfortunately, the junk sails seem to last forever so it is tempting to hang on to the old sails for just another year...


Regards
Arne Kverneland

PS:
For those of you who want to dig a little deeper into the subject of JR, I suggest you take a look at the Yahoo JR group, the link being shown below:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/

By browsing the Files and Photo section, you may find enough info to actually convert your boat to a JR.
 
I saw quite a few working junks in south China and they perform very well but I'd go for an AeroRig.I believe Snowleopard of this forum has one.
 
Junk cats

I've long admired the junk rig but also love sailing a cat. I know it appears on Wharam types but has it been fitted to a high volume cruising cat?
 
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