Junk rig performance on the RTI

[chrisedwards]

Its really difficult to persuade many about the performance of the modern junk rig. Just a troll of this forum will reveal the skepticism of those who often base their opinions on very little. The RTI is surely as fair a test as any?

A little junk rigged splinter - possibly the cheapest and smallest boat (19ft LOA) came 28 out of 52 (actual position) in subgroup (ISC8D) and 79 out of 190 who started at the same time - 0640 and 305 out of 730 overall.

The biggest mystery is why she had such an appalling handicap_ - worse than the Contessa 26's with their impressive RTI record.

The other junk rig did even better.

And now to the hundreds of other advantages.....not least you can sail them when bermudans have to use engines.....


I take no credit for any of this - just an observer

 

[NealB]

Yeah....but....no.....but....here's a possible downside:

Many years ago, I had a Cormandel for a couple of seasons. A great little boat with decent performance.

I found her so easily handled, that I found her rather boring.

I sold her and bought a proper old, winch free, heavy wooden gaff cutter. Now, she kept me busy for a good few years.

 

[chrisedwards]

That's the point - because they are so easily handled you can do things bermudans would not - not use the engine when they would - and then it becomes really exciting.

Yeah....but....no.....but....here's a possible downside:

Many years ago, I had a Cormandel for a couple of seasons. A great little boat with decent performance.

I found her so easily handled, that I found her rather boring.

I sold her and bought a proper old, winch free, heavy wooden gaff cutter. Now, she kept me busy for a good few years.

 

[josephmoore]

I was very impressed with the two junks which took off like a rocket after the start - there was no way we were catching them. On the day there was a lot of reaching involved which I'm sure helped as they can carry that bit extra sail area?

I'd have one, if I happened across the right boat when I was in the market. I did actively look and consider a junk rig before I bought my Hurley 22 but there just wasn't anything I wanted available for the kind of money I had in my pocket.

 

[NealB]

That's the point - because they are so easily handled you can do things bermudans would not - not use the engine when they would - and then it becomes really exciting.

Ah well....I amicably, and respectfully, beg to differ!

 

[chrisedwards]

Ah well....I amicably, and respectfully, beg to differ!

Of course you differ - you like doing a different type of sailing to me - you get turned on by the challenge of handling gaffers and I by maneuvering under sail and not using an engine. My point stands - for me sailing a junk rig is madly exciting as I can sail in a way you can, but would never do in a gaff rig.

 

[chrisedwards]

Thanks for you enlightening comments.

The junk rig which I did the RTI on had exactly the same area as the equivalent bermudan in order to keep the handicap.

Junk rig cannot fly spinnakers - so the irony was that time was made up on the windward run.

There has been a lovely junk rig Hurley 22 for sale for £1500???

I was very impressed with the two junks which took off like a rocket after the start - there was no way we were catching them. On the day there was a lot of reaching involved which I'm sure helped as they can carry that bit extra sail area?

I'd have one, if I happened across the right boat when I was in the market. I did actively look and consider a junk rig before I bought my Hurley 22 but there just wasn't anything I wanted available for the kind of money I had in my pocket.

 

[NealB]

Of course you differ - you like doing a different type of sailing to me - you get turned on by the challenge of handling gaffers and I by maneuvering under sail and not using an engine. My point stands - for me sailing a junk rig is madly exciting as I can sail in a way you can, but would never do in a gaff rig.

Hmmm....I meant that I don't accept some of your assumptions.

But it matters not one tiny jot......Enjoy your junk sailing!

 

[chrisedwards]

and you your gaff sailing!.... which I have found so restricting that it is rather boring.

Hmmm....I meant that I don't accept some of your assumptions.

But it matters not one tiny jot......Enjoy your junk sailing!

 

[NealB]

and you your gaff sailing!.... which I have found so restricting that it is rather boring.

Chris..

I apologise if I've deflated your obvious enthusiasm. That was not my intention: I like enthusiasts!

I agree with you that junk rig has some really useful characteristics: its ease of handling by a small crew, and its use of simple (easily repaired) gear, perhaps being two of its strongest selling points.

It's obviously a very capable rig, as your comments about the RTI confirm. It's been the rig of choice for some of the world's best, most knowledgeable, and most adventurous, sailors.

I have the absolute highest regard for what it can do, and am in no way criticising your obvious enthusiasm for it.

Personally, however, having owned a Coromandel for three years back in the early 80s, I just found that, speaking personally, I didn't find it very satisfying, or fun, to sail.

(ps I sold my old gaffer seven years ago and now have a bermudan rigged catamaran, though I may be selling her soon. You may conclude, perhaps, that I just get bored sailiing the same boat for too long!).

 

[josephmoore]

There has been a lovely junk rig Hurley 22 for sale for £1500???

Has there? I'd spotted the one on Sunbird's brokerage for £2500 and discounted it for being a fin keel (I really wanted a bilge keeler for added cheapskateness...)

Interesting stuff on sail areas. We had no spinnaker on the day either, though for a symmetrical I think it would have been the Needles to St Catherines being the only viable leg so we didn't feel too hard done by.

 

[chrisedwards]

Thanks for positive comments but in your first post you said of your junk boat "great little boat with a decent performance" which you had for "two seasons".

Now you are saying "didnt find it very satisfying/fun to sail" and had for three years.

Are you talking about the same boat - or the cat perhaps....

Now I'm saying - to make it interesting - take advantage of it being "easy to handle" (your wording) - sail it, dont use the engine when everyone else is. This is one of the most sublime manifestations of seamanship and can never be fully mastered. The junk rig allows you to practice and develop a form of sailing which could be possible but foolhardy in other rigs.

Now if you do not like doing this - fine - gaffs and cats are great too. - But I'm only suggesting a way of overcoming the boredom (your word) of having an easily handled boat (your term)

Please don't concern yourself about my enthusiasm

Chris..

I apologise if I've deflated your obvious enthusiasm. That was not my intention: I like enthusiasts!

I agree with you that junk rig has some really useful characteristics: its ease of handling by a small crew, and its use of simple (easily repaired) gear, perhaps being two of its strongest selling points.

It's obviously a very capable rig, as your comments about the RTI confirm. It's been the rig of choice for some of the world's best, most knowledgeable, and most adventurous, sailors.

I have the absolute highest regard for what it can do, and am in no way criticising your obvious enthusiasm for it.

Personally, however, having owned a Coromandel for three years back in the early 80s, I just found that, speaking personally, I didn't find it very satisfying, or fun, to sail.

(ps I sold my old gaffer seven years ago and now have a bermudan rigged catamaran, though I may be selling her soon. You may conclude, perhaps, that I just get bored sailiing the same boat for too long!).

 

[Woodlouse]

I like doing things in Gaffers that you might only consider doing in a Junk. With tricing and scandalizing the main, backing, filling and dropping headsails you can have as much fun as you like. Personally I'd get a bit bored with just one halyard and a mainsheet to tweek no matter what I was able to do under sail with it. I don't deny that junks can be ideal for long distance cruising when short handed, and there are still some out there doing outstanding voyages, but the same can be said for most rigs when properly set up.

I don't really know what if anything your RTIR statistics say. After all, all the positions are basically mid fleet, which makes junks no better than your average cruising boat, then you have the extraordinarily wide range of skill and experience in the fleet, from olympic winners, to first time charterers which would have a far greater effect on the end result than the boat in the majority of cases. I wonder how the sailors in the junk rig boats would have performed in a more conventional yacht?

 

[Marakei]

I am sorry this thread seems to be turning into one person saying junk is really great compared to other rigs and other people saying no it's not.

I am an enthusiast of junk rig because I value the ease of handling and because short handed cruising is what I want to do.

It is interesting to see that junks can perform adequately in races, as it is infuriating when people persist in saying that they are always very slow.

But it does not concern me whether junk is any good for racing or not or whether it is the best all-round rig. It is vindicated by the voyages people have made with it, and that is enough.

As for gaff, I know little about sailing it, but to me it's by far the most attractive rig. Junk and Bermudan both look ok, but nothing is as beautiful as a gaffer.

 

[chrisedwards]

I agree with everything you say

I like doing things in Gaffers that you might only consider doing in a Junk. With tricing and scandalizing the main, backing, filling and dropping headsails you can have as much fun as you like. Personally I'd get a bit bored with just one halyard and a mainsheet to tweek no matter what I was able to do under sail with it. I don't deny that junks can be ideal for long distance cruising when short handed, and there are still some out there doing outstanding voyages, but the same can be said for most rigs when properly set up.

I don't really know what if anything your RTIR statistics say. After all, all the positions are basically mid fleet, which makes junks no better than your average cruising boat, then you have the extraordinarily wide range of skill and experience in the fleet, from olympic winners, to first time charterers which would have a far greater effect on the end result than the boat in the majority of cases. I wonder how the sailors in the junk rig boats would have performed in a more conventional yacht?

 

[Woodlouse]

I agree with everything you say

How very diplomatic.

 

[chrisedwards]

I hope you are wrong here - I'm just saying the junk rig needn't be boring if you exploit its ease of handling - for me. This is by no means a dictate to all. Handling a gaff can be incredibly satisfying for others - we all play different games and that is the way it should be.

Nothing is as beautiful as a junk

So many previous posts slam junks on performance grounds - hence my original post - we can draw our own conclusions.

I am sorry this thread seems to be turning into one person saying junk is really great compared to other rigs and other people saying no it's not.

I am an enthusiast of junk rig because I value the ease of handling and because short handed cruising is what I want to do.

It is interesting to see that junks can perform adequately in races, as it is infuriating when people persist in saying that they are always very slow.

But it does not concern me whether junk is any good for racing or not or whether it is the best all-round rig. It is vindicated by the voyages people have made with it, and that is enough.

As for gaff, I know little about sailing it, but to me it's by far the most attractive rig. Junk and Bermudan both look ok, but nothing is as beautiful as a gaffer.

 

[NealB]

Thanks for positive comments but in your first post you said of your junk boat "great little boat with a decent performance" which you had for "two seasons".

Now you are saying "didnt find it very satisfying/fun to sail" and had for three years.

Are you talking about the same boat - or the cat perhaps....

Now I'm saying - to make it interesting - take advantage of it being "easy to handle" (your wording) - sail it, dont use the engine when everyone else is. This is one of the most sublime manifestations of seamanship and can never be fully mastered. The junk rig allows you to practice and develop a form of sailing which could be possible but foolhardy in other rigs.

Now if you do not like doing this - fine - gaffs and cats are great too. - But I'm only suggesting a way of overcoming the boredom (your word) of having an easily handled boat (your term)

Please don't concern yourself about my enthusiasm

I was, indeed, referring to the Coromadel (she was called 'Shoggle 11' - I never found out what that meant). I owned her in the early 80's for about 2 to 3 years (I can go back and check if more precision is required!). Yes, she was a 'great little boat', yes she had 'decent performance', and we had some really enjoyable cruises around the East Coast in her. However, I did find that the performance was delivered in, what I found to be, a fairly dull sort of way (but my background before then was racing National 12s). She didn't 'talk' to me in the same way, as say a bermudan rigged Corribee would.

So....very practical, very effective, but a bit unexciting, is my view of junk rig, and that was my reason for selling her.

As to your point about being able to sail a junk when you'd have to use the engine with another rig...... I just don't understand it.

Sure, I'd have sailed the Coromandel in situations where I'd probably motor with the catamaran. But that's because of the huge difference in the sizes of the boats, and absolutely nothing at all to do with their rigs. I really can't think of a situation where it'd be 'foolhardy' to sail a bermudan Hurley 22, say, but acceptable to sail a junk rigged one.

Anyway....that's enough from me.

I love to see different rigs on the water, particularly if they're being sailed well.

 

[chrisedwards]

Thanks for your response - If you are correct - that a bermudan Hurley 22 can sail in every situation as a junk rig Hurley then my original argument, that you can overcome the boredom of a junk rig by exploiting its ease of handling, would be undermined.

It would take a small book to provide a defence but how about considering the following as a start:

I can drop all sails/reef in one second - just imagine being able to roar into confined waters under absolute control (full sail) knowing this - I could but would not do this in any other rig - in many crowded situations.

I can hoist/drop all sails regardless of attitude to wind.......

I can do all the other jobs associated with close quarters manoeuvering (eg lookout, backing sails, light anchor work etc) as I only have so few lines to handle

I have great visiblility...

I can instantly raise and lower - say one panel - like an accelerator in a car

etc etc - you can do so much close quarters work - just like the thousands of junks I worked with on the Yangtze in the 1970's - they made my jaw drop

I was, indeed, referring to the Coromadel (she was called 'Shoggle 11' - I never found out what that meant). I owned her in the early 80's for about 2 to 3 years (I can go back and check if more precision is required!). Yes, she was a 'great little boat', yes she had 'decent performance', and we had some really enjoyable cruises around the East Coast in her. However, I did find that the performance was delivered in, what I found to be, a fairly dull sort of way (but my background before then was racing National 12s). She didn't 'talk' to me in the same way, as say a bermudan rigged Corribee would.

So....very practical, very effective, but a bit unexciting, is my view of junk rig, and that was my reason for selling her.

As to your point about being able to sail a junk when you'd have to use the engine with another rig...... I just don't understand it.

Sure, I'd have sailed the Coromandel in situations where I'd probably motor with the catamaran. But that's because of the huge difference in the sizes of the boats, and absolutely nothing at all to do with their rigs. I really can't think of a situation where it'd be 'foolhardy' to sail a bermudan Hurley 22, say, but acceptable to sail a junk rigged one.

Anyway....that's enough from me.

I love to see different rigs on the water, particularly if they're being sailed well.

 

[Tranona]

Much as I admire your spirited advocacy of the rig on your boat, it does not seem that its advantages as you describe them appeal to many other people - at least to the extent of of owning a boat with that rig. All the things you describe being able to do can be done easily on most cruising sailing boats - but probably not under sail. That is what you have an auxiliary engine for. While it might give you a good feeling to be able to do these things under sail, the vast majority of people are quite happy to stow their sails and undertake close quarters work with a motor. Cannot understand why you think your way is inherently superior to another. It is a question of making the best use of the resources at your disposal.

The chance of alternative rigs, that do not provide significant advantages from the point of view of the average user, gaining any ground is minimal. The vast majority of people buy existing boats and few are fitted with junk rig. The cost of conversion is disproportionate to the value of the boat, so few will do that. New boat buyers can choose rigs that are either easy to handle (in mast or in boom reefing for example) or performance orientated and in the last 20 years no new rigs have made any significant progress in the market place. Everything is about developing a basic form that satisfies most needs.

So, think your type of rig will forever stay on the margins of mainstream yachting. Appreciated by a small number of people but of limited attraction to the majority.